Continuation of the discussion regarding the hadith of al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them both) and its use as evidence for the ruling on a woman covering her face.
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The Shaykh : So what was the position of the Messenger (peace be upon him) toward her?
The questioner : He turned al-Fadl away.
The Shaykh : I am asking you what the position of the Messenger was toward her, not toward al-Fadl?
The questioner : How do you mean? Clarify it for me.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. There was a woman, and I was looking at her, and she was fair and beautiful, as you mentioned.
The questioner : And she was looking at him.
The Shaykh : Now, if you allow me to speak:
There is a beautiful, fair woman, and I am looking at her, and you are a righteous, good man who does this for me. What is your position toward her, and she is uncovering her face?
The questioner : My position toward her?
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : In certain cases.
The Shaykh : In this case, we do not want to assume anything other than what actually happened.
The questioner : If, for example, she was in the time of the Message, and she was far from knowledge and the city, a woman from Khath'am, and the people of the periphery always have a kind of ignorance regarding some rulings, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to leave some things out of fear of certain matters, blocking certain means, such as his leaving (peace and blessings be upon him) the rebuilding of the House on the foundations of Ibrahim out of concern for Quraysh, because they were new to Islam. So when the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) turned al-Fadl’s face away, it was because al-Fadl was more established in Islam than she was.
The Shaykh : You have strayed far, O Shaykh, and I ask you to shorten the path for us. I am speaking about you, about me, and about the woman I saw and looked at, and she saw me looking at her, so you did what was obligatory upon you and turned my face to the other side. What is your position toward that woman?
The questioner : I told you, O Shaykh, my position toward her. If, for example, now, and the Qur'an was revealed nearly 1400 years ago, there are those who uncover even more of their faces, so you can advise one of them! You can advise a man about such and such, but you cannot advise her about such and such, depending on whether you have spoken to her about the oneness of Allah.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you, this is known. But if I see her fair and beautiful, is it wrong (munkar) to say to her: "O my daughter, turn your face away or cover your face"? Is this wrong, or is this enjoining good?
The questioner : Enjoining good.
The Shaykh : So why do you not enjoin good upon her?
The questioner : I must enjoin good upon her.
The Shaykh : But you did not enjoin good upon her?
The questioner : If I did not enjoin good upon her, I fell short.
The Shaykh : Does the Messenger fall short?
The questioner : The Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not fall short; rather, I am the one who said it.
The Shaykh : I understood, may Allah reward you. I ask you not to repeat to me first:
Do you have certain knowledge that this woman came from the desert and that she knew nothing of Islam, and that if the Messenger (peace be upon him) had said to her, "Cover your face from us, lower your face, turn your face away," it would have been wrong (munkar)? Do you have knowledge?
The questioner : No, what I have is that she was from Khath'am.
The Shaykh : No problem, Professor. Being from Khath'am and being cultured is not important in this matter. The important thing is: do you have knowledge that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his family), and she knew that he was the Messenger of Allah and consulted him about her incapacitated father, and so on, as you know in the hadith? Do you have knowledge that if the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) had said to her: "O my daughter, this is my cousin, and he nearly fell into temptation because of you, so turn your face away from us, may Allah reward you, or lower the khimar on your head," do you have knowledge that if the Messenger had said this to her, it would have become a trial (fitnah) for her?
The questioner : In fact, O Shaykh, I am telling you: I do not want to burden you or repeat my words to you.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you with good.
The questioner : In fact, when we say: that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) turned al-Fadl’s face away because looking is forbidden, based on the saying of the Exalted:.
The Shaykh : This is a deviation, may Allah reward you.
The questioner : This is acceptable, and I will not say anything else. I have nothing else.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. I am saying time is short, because the issue of looking—if you allow me, you are now deviating from the topic—the issue of looking is a matter of consensus. Now, is al-Fadl’s face an awrah (part of the body that must be covered) with respect to the woman?
The questioner : No.
The Shaykh : Is al-Fadl’s face an awrah with respect to the woman?
The questioner : No.
The Shaykh : Listen, listen. Even so, it is not permissible for the woman to look at al-Fadl’s face, correct?
The questioner : But I want you to give me a chance.
The Shaykh : I am asking you, may Allah reward you. I gave you the chance.
The questioner : You did not give it to me; you interrupted me, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : I interrupted you because you are repeating and saying "I have nothing but this." Did you say this, or did I?
The questioner : I am saying, O Shaykh, may Allah do you good, give me a small chance and I will be finished.
The Shaykh : Take whatever you want, but answer the question. I am asking you a question, and you speak as much as you want. Al-Fadl’s face is not an awrah with respect to the woman, and yet we agree that it is not permissible for the woman to look at the man’s face, and his face is not an awrah. What do you want me to say now? That it is permissible for the man to look at the woman? No, I do not say that. If we all say: that it is not permissible for the woman to look at the man’s face, and the man’s face is not an awrah, then there is no necessary connection—may Allah reward you—between the prohibition of looking at the face and that face being forbidden (an awrah). So the woman is not permitted to look at the man’s face not because it is an awrah, but because it is not befitting to intentionally look at the man’s face. Conversely, if the man looks at the woman, it is forbidden and not permissible, but that does not imply that the face being looked at is an awrah. The issue, as you know, is that our Lord commanded men to lower their gazes, and commanded women to lower their gazes. That does not mean that the face of both the woman and the man is an awrah. Nevertheless, looking is not permissible. So the issue of looking is one thing, and the issue of uncovering the face is another. It is permissible for the man to uncover his face by the consensus of the Muslims, but it is not permissible for the woman to look at this face even though it is not an awrah. So it is not permissible for you to infer, merely from the wise prohibition of the man looking at the woman’s face, that the woman’s face is an awrah. So I asked you in the previous scenario:
If the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) had said to that woman: "O my daughter, you nearly caused my cousin to fall into temptation, so cover your face from us, and lower it over your face!" Would that have become a trial (fitnah)? And you brought up the story: and so on. Where is this in relation to that?!
The Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) is the wisest of those who advise and enjoin good and forbid evil. So how do you imagine that the Messenger (peace be upon him) remained silent about this wrong (munkar), which was the Khath'amian woman uncovering her face?! You say and stray far. Perhaps she came from the desert and was new to Islam. If she was new to Islam, does the Messenger not know how to advise her such that what comes from this advice would be a trial (fitnah) for her? Rather, it would be discipline and teaching, as he did in the story of Mu'awiyah ibn al-Hakam al-Sulami. Perhaps you remember it. Do you remember the story?
The questioner : Give us a glimpse of it.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you with good.
The questioner : He turned al-Fadl away.
The Shaykh : I am asking you what the position of the Messenger was toward her, not toward al-Fadl?
The questioner : How do you mean? Clarify it for me.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. There was a woman, and I was looking at her, and she was fair and beautiful, as you mentioned.
The questioner : And she was looking at him.
The Shaykh : Now, if you allow me to speak:
There is a beautiful, fair woman, and I am looking at her, and you are a righteous, good man who does this for me. What is your position toward her, and she is uncovering her face?
The questioner : My position toward her?
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : In certain cases.
The Shaykh : In this case, we do not want to assume anything other than what actually happened.
The questioner : If, for example, she was in the time of the Message, and she was far from knowledge and the city, a woman from Khath'am, and the people of the periphery always have a kind of ignorance regarding some rulings, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to leave some things out of fear of certain matters, blocking certain means, such as his leaving (peace and blessings be upon him) the rebuilding of the House on the foundations of Ibrahim out of concern for Quraysh, because they were new to Islam. So when the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) turned al-Fadl’s face away, it was because al-Fadl was more established in Islam than she was.
The Shaykh : You have strayed far, O Shaykh, and I ask you to shorten the path for us. I am speaking about you, about me, and about the woman I saw and looked at, and she saw me looking at her, so you did what was obligatory upon you and turned my face to the other side. What is your position toward that woman?
The questioner : I told you, O Shaykh, my position toward her. If, for example, now, and the Qur'an was revealed nearly 1400 years ago, there are those who uncover even more of their faces, so you can advise one of them! You can advise a man about such and such, but you cannot advise her about such and such, depending on whether you have spoken to her about the oneness of Allah.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you, this is known. But if I see her fair and beautiful, is it wrong (munkar) to say to her: "O my daughter, turn your face away or cover your face"? Is this wrong, or is this enjoining good?
The questioner : Enjoining good.
The Shaykh : So why do you not enjoin good upon her?
The questioner : I must enjoin good upon her.
The Shaykh : But you did not enjoin good upon her?
The questioner : If I did not enjoin good upon her, I fell short.
The Shaykh : Does the Messenger fall short?
The questioner : The Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not fall short; rather, I am the one who said it.
The Shaykh : I understood, may Allah reward you. I ask you not to repeat to me first:
Do you have certain knowledge that this woman came from the desert and that she knew nothing of Islam, and that if the Messenger (peace be upon him) had said to her, "Cover your face from us, lower your face, turn your face away," it would have been wrong (munkar)? Do you have knowledge?
The questioner : No, what I have is that she was from Khath'am.
The Shaykh : No problem, Professor. Being from Khath'am and being cultured is not important in this matter. The important thing is: do you have knowledge that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his family), and she knew that he was the Messenger of Allah and consulted him about her incapacitated father, and so on, as you know in the hadith? Do you have knowledge that if the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) had said to her: "O my daughter, this is my cousin, and he nearly fell into temptation because of you, so turn your face away from us, may Allah reward you, or lower the khimar on your head," do you have knowledge that if the Messenger had said this to her, it would have become a trial (fitnah) for her?
The questioner : In fact, O Shaykh, I am telling you: I do not want to burden you or repeat my words to you.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you with good.
The questioner : In fact, when we say: that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) turned al-Fadl’s face away because looking is forbidden, based on the saying of the Exalted:
And say to the believing men that they lower
وقل للمؤمنين يغضواThe Shaykh : This is a deviation, may Allah reward you.
The questioner : This is acceptable, and I will not say anything else. I have nothing else.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. I am saying time is short, because the issue of looking—if you allow me, you are now deviating from the topic—the issue of looking is a matter of consensus. Now, is al-Fadl’s face an awrah (part of the body that must be covered) with respect to the woman?
The questioner : No.
The Shaykh : Is al-Fadl’s face an awrah with respect to the woman?
The questioner : No.
The Shaykh : Listen, listen. Even so, it is not permissible for the woman to look at al-Fadl’s face, correct?
The questioner : But I want you to give me a chance.
The Shaykh : I am asking you, may Allah reward you. I gave you the chance.
The questioner : You did not give it to me; you interrupted me, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : I interrupted you because you are repeating and saying "I have nothing but this." Did you say this, or did I?
The questioner : I am saying, O Shaykh, may Allah do you good, give me a small chance and I will be finished.
The Shaykh : Take whatever you want, but answer the question. I am asking you a question, and you speak as much as you want. Al-Fadl’s face is not an awrah with respect to the woman, and yet we agree that it is not permissible for the woman to look at the man’s face, and his face is not an awrah. What do you want me to say now? That it is permissible for the man to look at the woman? No, I do not say that. If we all say: that it is not permissible for the woman to look at the man’s face, and the man’s face is not an awrah, then there is no necessary connection—may Allah reward you—between the prohibition of looking at the face and that face being forbidden (an awrah). So the woman is not permitted to look at the man’s face not because it is an awrah, but because it is not befitting to intentionally look at the man’s face. Conversely, if the man looks at the woman, it is forbidden and not permissible, but that does not imply that the face being looked at is an awrah. The issue, as you know, is that our Lord commanded men to lower their gazes, and commanded women to lower their gazes. That does not mean that the face of both the woman and the man is an awrah. Nevertheless, looking is not permissible. So the issue of looking is one thing, and the issue of uncovering the face is another. It is permissible for the man to uncover his face by the consensus of the Muslims, but it is not permissible for the woman to look at this face even though it is not an awrah. So it is not permissible for you to infer, merely from the wise prohibition of the man looking at the woman’s face, that the woman’s face is an awrah. So I asked you in the previous scenario:
If the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) had said to that woman: "O my daughter, you nearly caused my cousin to fall into temptation, so cover your face from us, and lower it over your face!" Would that have become a trial (fitnah)? And you brought up the story:
If it were not that your people are new
لولا أن قومكم حديثوا عهدThe Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) is the wisest of those who advise and enjoin good and forbid evil. So how do you imagine that the Messenger (peace be upon him) remained silent about this wrong (munkar), which was the Khath'amian woman uncovering her face?! You say and stray far. Perhaps she came from the desert and was new to Islam. If she was new to Islam, does the Messenger not know how to advise her such that what comes from this advice would be a trial (fitnah) for her? Rather, it would be discipline and teaching, as he did in the story of Mu'awiyah ibn al-Hakam al-Sulami. Perhaps you remember it. Do you remember the story?
The questioner : Give us a glimpse of it.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you with good.