Discussion on the Murji'ah and the accusation of it against al-Shafi'i and al-Albani

The student : Then, my Shaykh, another matter. In truth, as I mentioned to you, the issue in which the two sides differed in our present era is a single issue that has existed since ancient times. It is the issue that has accompanied Islamic history until our time. The only thing that has differed is the method of presentation or the interpretation of the evidence from here and there, but the methodology has never differed. It is one fixed issue, which is the issue of declaring someone a disbeliever (takfir). It originated with the Khawarij.

The Shaykh : If we take the methodology, may Allah reward you, in general terms, we say as you stated. But it is not hidden from you, may Allah reward you and all the attendees, that the important thing is the application of the methodology.
The student : Yes, yes.

The Shaykh : So the matter now, regarding the issue in which the statements of the four Imams differed—we do not go beyond them to others—on the topic of the one who abandons prayer, there is no need for detail because it is a known matter. But when someone says, for example, that the one who abandons prayer is a disbeliever, there is no clarification, there is no clarity. Is it as we say, that this is a matter that does not need us to mention something unknown? We say that in denial, or what indicates denial, or an action accompanied by faith, this is a settled matter. But when does the one who abandons prayer become a disbeliever? Does he abandon one prayer, two, three, four? There is no clarification, there is no clarification. They speak in such a way that the one who abandons prayer is a disbeliever, the one who abandons prayer is a disbeliever. It is possible to say he abandoned it entirely, and it is possible to take this from the language of the situation, as it is said that the language of the situation is more eloquent than the language of speech. But a man who followed his desire and abandoned prayer without a legal excuse, did he become a disbeliever in the sense that he apostatized from his religion? I have not seen, to my knowledge, anyone who defined this point of disagreement that you are referring to.
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : It has existed since ancient times, but defining the basis of the ruling. Is the basis of the ruling merely one prayer, accompanied by faith in it and admission that he is a sinner before Allah, or is it accompanied by negligence and mockery, and so on, from words that indicate...
The student : ...denial.

The Shaykh : ...that he does not believe, that he does not believe. Therefore, the methodology, no offense intended, the methodology, Sunnis and Shias agree with each other on the Qur'an and the Sunnah. But where is their Qur'an compared to our Qur'an? So the important thing is the application, the detail, and the clarification.

The questioner : May Allah bless you, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : This is the obligatory, this is the obligatory.

The questioner : May Allah will it, it will arrive, may Allah will it, it will arrive.

The Shaykh : This is what I wanted to draw attention to, meaning that the issue of our brothers, these people, they agree with us in the methodology. That is not enough; we need practical application, practical application.
The student : He is, my Shaykh, this, may Allah reward you. Please, Shaykh, please.

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : Please, complete your speech.

The Shaykh : I did not hear.
The student : Complete your speech. I say, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Go ahead.
The student : Just this is a matter on which there is no disagreement, even among our brothers like Salman and Safer. They do not differ on this issue. But even when you ask them about the issue of declaring someone a disbeliever (takfir), what are its limits, what are its conditions, what are its signs, what is its beginning, what is its end, they say the same thing that you are saying now. But the issue of the Murji'ah that you referred to, and that some say that Imam al-Shafi'i (may Allah have mercy on him) is from the Murji'ah, this is a statement, in truth, I do not know if they say it regarding the Murji'ah which is delaying the ruling on the one who abandons prayer and others whom they declare disbelievers to Allah (Blessed and Exalted is He), as He is the one who disposes of their affair on the Day of Resurrection, or is it something else? This is what must be...

The Shaykh : This is known, may Allah reward you. As is not hidden from you, the Murji'ah are of two types.
The student: Yes, that is it.

The Shaykh : One type does not need discussion.
The student: Correct.

The Shaykh : And it is that a sin does not harm with faith, empty talk, and so on. But Safer al-Hawali says "the Murji'ah of the jurists."
The student : A new term.

The Shaykh : The Murji'ah of the jurists, and among them is Imam al-Shafi'i. Imam al-Shafi'i says, as the Salaf say and we follow them, "Faith increases and decreases," but he does not declare the one who abandons prayer a disbeliever, so he became one of the Murji'ah of the jurists.
The student : It is an expression that needs evaluation, without a doubt. It must be corrected. But the matter you referred to, I do not think Safer or Salman says it.

The Shaykh : What is it?
The student : The Murji'ah in the sense that a sin does not harm with faith.

The Shaykh: No, no.
The student : They are far from that.

The Shaykh : We said this is another type. We are saying that he speaks about Imam al-Shafi'i as being from the Murji'ah of the jurists, and that does not mean that... God forbid. But is that not enough? Leave Imam al-Shafi'i, who is an Imam of the Imams of the Sunnah, he said... This is al-Albani. And as you heard me say, this al-Albani is a Muslim among the Muslims, with his voice and his pen in his books, that faith increases and decreases, its increase is in obedience and its decrease is in disobedience. Why is he placed among the Murji'ah? Leave al-Shafi'i, who is an Imam of the Imams of the Muslims...
The student : This is a slip for which he is held accountable... Abdul Latif, we want...
Another student: ...

The Shaykh : ...old.
The student : No, no, my Shaykh, we...