A Discussion of Salman al-Oudah’s Statement on the Obligation of Preachers and Students of Knowledge to Assume Leadership Positions Citing the Fear of Fitnah and Fame

The student: "The scholars, preachers, and those versed in jurisprudence must engage in enjoining good and forbidding evil on every level, and in rebuking those with moral deviations and those with ideological deviations, so that every person does what he is able to do and what suits his condition and the condition of the one he is rebuking." That is, according to one's capacity... "Secondly: Among the errors as well is what is found among the masses of students..."
Shuqara: ... If this is the case... the truth is, you don't know this example... you don't know where to place it in the previous first statement...

The Shaykh: ... it will be an answer, the speech has not yet ended...
The student: There is a complete chapter in it, and then it addresses the issue of change by force and entering the women's quarters and other places and breaking them, and that this is not obligatory because it leads to greater evils, and that it is not permissible to speak... Yes, he says: "Among the errors as well is what is found among the masses of students of knowledge and preachers in this age: the turning away from assuming roles that involve public benefit, and the turning away from taking the lead in teaching or guidance or leadership, out of disdain for reputation and status, and aversion to fame, and a preference for obscurity and concealment and staying away from the spotlight. And perhaps some of them cling to what is reported from some of the Salaf in phrases in this meaning, indicating their dislike of taking the lead and their annoyance at people's exalting of them and their hatred of themselves. And perhaps he argues with the statement of Ayyub al-Sakhtiyani, with the statement of Ayyub al-Sakhtiyani: 'I am mentioned, and I do not like to be mentioned.' And the statement of al-Thawri: 'If you see a man who is mentioned in a town for his recitation and worship, and his name has become prominent there, and the voice is agitated by him, and he does not leave it, then do not hope for good.' And some of them say: 'I am not worthy of this; someone else will do it, one of those to whom Allah has granted the ability. And it is injustice to the people for me to do this matter,' among other weak excuses and pretexts. If the one who relies on them were to account for himself with a true, frank, and sincere accounting, he would realize that they do not stand up and are not valid, and he would be the first to advise against them."

The Shaykh: Well, does this statement have a continuation, Shaykh Ali?
The student: There is a connection here...
Shuqara: This is dangerous speech, Shaykh Ali. This alone is enough to reject the entire book for this statement.

The Shaykh: Be patient, let us see the continuation.
The student: "And the reality is that the people who are most ascetic regarding these matters are, in general, the most competent and qualified for them, despite the deficiency and shortcoming in them. And if the sincere ones who are ascetic regarding fame and status abandon these fields, it makes them fertile ground for everyone who is not qualified for them, from the carriers of terrestrial ideologies, and from those who display goodness while being its opposite, and from the sheikhs of religious innovation and Sufism, and from those seeking fame who are eager to gain the respect, praise, and commendation of people. And among the results of this is that those who represent religion in Muslim societies become of these deviant types, and that the people of knowledge, the Sunnah, and righteousness become distant from these fields, withdrawn in their homes and gatherings, hardly heard of by anyone. And perhaps this state pleases them and they excuse themselves by saying that they are in a state of estrangement, and that this is the price of estrangement, and that being in a state of estrangement is a reality. But this is not the affair of the strangers, nor are these their characteristics. The successful stranger who is eager to be under the banner of the Victorious Sect, which stands by the command of Allah, his affair is jihad in all fields, and speaking out with the truth, and working to remove this estrangement from the religion, its laws, and its people who hold fast to it. It is not his affair to prefer safety and participate in tightening the ring of estrangement around himself, even if he does not realize it. And he has a role model in the first strangers, with whom the religion began, where the feeling of estrangement did not increase them except steadfastness upon the truth, enthusiasm for it, patience with it, and jihad in it, until Allah achieved through their hands the most complete and perfect victory for this religion, and Allah removed the estrangement from it through them. And their love for obscurity and aversion to fame did not prevent them from engaging in da'wah, jihad, and guidance, even if it resulted in their becoming famous and known, against their will. And on this basis, the words of the Salaf are understood. As for us sitting down and turning away from the places of expression and proclamation, and turning away from the places of expression and proclamation, and enjoining and forbidding, and guidance and da'wah, and then claiming that this is estrangement, this is bad judgment and weak planning. Excusing oneself with incapacity and weakness, and the shortcoming of means, and lack of competence, are not real justifications for abandoning the field of da'wah and guidance and withdrawing from it. Because among these withdrawers who excuse themselves with weakness and shortcoming are those who criticize many of those engaged in these fields, and they disparage them and belittle them. And this is proof that they did not leave the field for one who is more competent, more capable, more knowledgeable, more pure in intention, and more upright in conduct, but for one who is less, weaker, and more ignorant, by their own admission. And often, the devilish deterrents that entice one to comfort and sitting down are confused with the desire to engage in comfortable, quiet works like reading, research, and worship, and the like. And these and that are confused with the soul's poverty and its belittling and contempt of itself, until these matters appear to their owner as a type of correct Salafi asceticism, when they are nothing of the sort. Rather, the one who is eager for the good of his own soul and the good of the Muslims, the one who is eager to remove estrangement from himself and from them, is the one who exerts what he has of knowledge, understanding, and jurisprudence, even if it is little, without claiming what is not his. And he is the one who competes with the people of misguidance and religious innovation in leading Muslim societies and guiding them, and he benefits from the opportune moments in that, with his intense eagerness for the safety of his soul from attachment to the world, status, and position among people, and his jihad against that in that. But..."
Al-Halabi: Our Shaykh, just an observation: do you not see that this speech is the same, but in another form, as that argument by which the Muslim Brotherhood and others argue in entering the arena of parliaments and democracies and the like?

The Shaykh: It is without a doubt, my brother, but our brother Ali is more patient than us. He says the speech is not yet finished, and therefore we want to wait until the end of the matter.
Al-Halabi: Repeating, our Shaykh, it is not... it has just become repetition.

The Shaykh: My brother, because he read the topic beforehand.
Al-Halabi: He read the entire book, our Shaykh.

The Shaykh: You, yes, no problem, let us take his opinion. Has the topic ended yet, or not?
Shuqara: I think the remaining speech is the same as what was said?
The student: No, it is not the same, I mean there is speech to complete the paragraph, and then we comment. I do not say that his speech is entirely correct and that there is no criticism of it, but I say let us complete his speech, the paragraph, and then...

The Shaykh: But you are saying, may Allah bless you, every time we stop at a sentence you say this will be clarified later... to the continuation of the clarification. And we increase in faith that this clarification is the same, repeating. Until when, I mean?
Al-Halabi: I mean, may Allah be pleased with him, he is a man, may Allah reward him with good, an eloquent writer, I mean, the writer's speech, I mean, glory be to Allah, it overflows with abundance.
The student: I am now, let me just ask one question. The brother, may Allah reward him with good, he said: "And on this basis, the words of the Salaf are understood." On this basis, the words of the Salaf are understood. Well, this is what we want to understand them on, as he understood them. But which Salaf are these? Who are they?
The student: He mentioned Ayyub, and these he mentioned, he mentioned the statement of Ayyub, the statement of Ayyub al-Sakhtiyani, and al-Thawri, I mean, an example...
Shuqara: What is in the Salaf other than these is just mentioning good words... something nice, this is it. But how is it to be understood in light of what he intended first, and secondly? When we look at it, we say that the Salaf—let us say from the century before the one we are in until we reach the early period of Islam—do you think there was a difference in the Salaf's understanding of this matter, or did a single understanding prevail over all of them? Some of them were like others in this. Secondly, do you think that when the Salaf—whether the Salaf in the early period of the Prophethood, the early period of the Message, or near, middle, or far—could they give us an example or examples of what the Salaf did in the manner he intended? So, truly, this speech is very serious, and may Allah forgive our brother and reward him with good for what he did well, if he did so with a good intention, and I do not think his intention was anything but good, if Allah wills.
The student : In any case, I do not understand from him what our brother mentioned.The Shaykh : That he intends by this parliaments and other such matters. I do not understand this. I only understand from him that every believer must perform the obligatory duty to the extent of his knowledge, and not...
Shuqara: No parliaments, no parliaments, entering ministries.
The student : No ministries either. I do not understand from him that...
Shuqara: By Allah, this is the path of his speech.

The Shaykh : Well, no ministries. What about teaching girls in mixed universities? What do you understand from this speech? Is it permissible or not permissible?
The student : I may understand from it that it is permissible for one who possesses the capability.

The Shaykh : Who possesses it? Who possesses the ability not to be fitnah'd?
Shuqara: Who possesses it, O Shaykh?

The Shaykh : Who is able to say, "I do not fear for myself"? We hear this often, and from young men in the early stages of youth, perhaps a bachelor...
Shuqara: All of them, all of them are bachelors. Who studies in the university, the students or...The student : ...?
The student : He does not permit the issue of mixing. The issue of mixing is one thing, and the issue of teaching for one who is afflicted by it is another...
Shuqara: I did not understand the Shaykh's words. The Shaykh says who studies.

The Shaykh : In these mixed societies, and he also permits the girl to enter the university for medicine...
The student : No, I do not think he permits it. The environment he lives in, he is in Saudi Arabia, unlike those who live here...

The Shaykh : My brother, I am not speaking...
The student : I do not think that his speech can be understood as permitting that. He spoke about the issue of the woman, the woman's job, and the woman's work, and that these people do not employ the woman unless she removes... and removes the hijab, and they make that a condition. He denied that with the strongest denial...

The Shaykh : This speech, may Allah reward him with good, is correct. But our discussion now does not focus on this angle. It focuses on the angle of one who wants to reform these people...
The student : So, it requires clarifying the statement with him. What exactly does he intend by this speech?

The Shaykh : No, we are now closer to understanding each other than to understanding him, is that not so? So, we are now cooperating that this speech we read, first, second, and perhaps third, and so on, does it not feel, if we do not say it is explicit in its indication, in permitting the Muslim to risk his religion, his character, and so on, in the path of performing the duty of teaching, guidance, enjoining good and forbidding evil? And so you find the examples the brother proposed or referred to earlier: the issue of entering parliaments. The professor said ministries. You said, no, not this and not that. We said teaching in the university where there is mixing between the sexes, and so on. We said finally, the girls who want to study medicine in order to perform the duty of treating women. And we are undoubtedly in need of this, and this is a matter in which there is no disagreement. This speech we read is not very clear in supporting the disturbing reality where many Muslims undertake teaching in this education and guidance, and they enter...
The student : Yes, this is possible. It may enter because he said there is harm and there is benefit, meaning whichever is stronger prevails. Opinions may differ in evaluating this. This may enter into his speech...
Shuqara: Today, O Shaykh, a woman called me, I don't know, just a minute ago. She said to me... and I am a doctor, a specialist in gynecology. The Shaykh: ...
The student : Gynecology, yes. She said to me, "And now I want to go to... for specialization, because this speech, of course, I heard it from the professors and from... I know the group they are from." She said, "This is in the context of realizing the public benefit and caring for it, and that it is not permissible for the woman to... neglect her role." I spoke with her at length. Truly, she was convinced in the end, but from the example I gave her. I said to her, "I want to ask you just one question: Can you mention to me a woman in the history of Islam who was known as a gynecologist? Mention just one. Where did the Muslim woman go for treatment if she needed treatment?" She said, "She used to go to look for a gynecologist." She said, "I do not know." I said to her, "It is not because you do not know, but because it is not permissible in the first place, because history has not preserved for us a woman who was specialized in a medicine called gynecology. Not even one woman was known for medicine, and then I said to her something else. I said to her, "Do you know now that... of course, I did not tell her that the reason for the woman's failure, even in this field in which she claims to be specialized, and that it is for the sake of realizing the benefit for Muslims, and that the Muslim woman is not allowed to go to a man. I told her that the reason is that many women claim to be doctors, the female doctors, and go to the male doctors. Why? Not because she does not want to be treated or cured by the female doctor. On the contrary, she may be pious and careful about that, but for another reason. Because medicine is not... because these female doctors are not skilled in the medical profession. There are many exceptions. I said to her, "And you know women better than I do, as for the man... from these exceptions." So she was silent in the end and said, "Well, I am of course the argument of the weak one... the argument is weaker than what he went to. She said, 'I want to travel from here. I want to take a mahram with me, and the residence there, I can manage my affairs. I am capable of managing my own affairs. I am capable of managing my own affairs.'"
Another student: Meaning she does not have a mahram.
Shuqara: She does not have one. I said to her, "Well, you are fine, you reached there." I said to her, "Do you not know that men have become afraid in their homes and cannot even now stand firm? It has been established that the man cannot repel the ordinary aggression against himself while he is in his home. So how can the woman who goes to the lands of the West, to the lands of Britain, how can she prevent herself from aggression against her, or robbery, or such and such?" And so, it was cut off, and he said, "You see... So this speech encourages people like these, not just for learning and mixing, but for something further: that the woman goes by herself to learn in the lands of disbelief...
The student : No, I do not think he says this contradicts the texts of the Shari'ah...
Shuqara: I am telling you it encourages. I did not say... I am telling you this speech encourages people like these. Like the words of our Shaykh, it reminds me of the words of this Egyptian brother, the one who has been with you for days.
The student : 'Abd al-Wahhab...
Shuqara: 'Abd al-Wahhab... his speech resembles this speech...

The Shaykh : Yes, the whole door is from one door. All this speech, O Professor, meets with the principle of sadd al-dhara'i' (blocking the means to harm)...
The student : It does not conflict.
Shuqara: It meets and conflicts. I am answering the Shaykh. He means, at the beginning, the conflict between harm and benefit. If the benefit prevails, he does it. If the harm prevails, he avoids it. So here, he estimates that the one afflicted is the one who will estimate that...

The Shaykh : ... we had men who knew their own souls better than him, and then they were criticized for...
The student : He is often, in many cases, some people underestimate their own worth, and the community needs them in work. It is in reality, in actual fact, like this, because he may criticize others and say...

The Shaykh : Now I will ask you a question regarding our time. There are these ascetics today who leave a position and a job, and so on, out of fear for themselves...? Student: No... Shaykh.

The Shaykh : But in terms of knowing the reality...
The student : I cannot say that if he did not see things of this kind...
Another student: He is talking about the public interest... He is talking about how to call people and about the callers, and about carrying out the call, because at the beginning... they take on positions... his words are that they take on the public interest.
The student : The public interest.
Another student: Then he goes back to mentioning that you advanced in guiding the call and the callers, and occupying the leadership in the call and the callers, so is... the public interest part of the position and others, or is it intended for the operation of the call... and guiding the callers to this speech?

The Shaykh : He also referred to the positions, where they left these positions for the wicked and the sinners.
The student : He explicitly stated, of course, at the same time he emphasized the issue of the call and the callers.

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : The intended meaning in his speech is what I don't know, it might be...
Another student: Now you need to clarify from him what he means by the limits he means exactly, meaning...

The Shaykh : The speech leaves it general, opening up problems...
The student : Yes, this can be, it must be specified...
Another student: Our Shaykh, let us wait a little until the lesson ends...

The Shaykh : ... .
Shuqara: Abu 'Abdullah, Abu 'Abdullah, if now... if the brother, the brother Salman, if he was advised and accepted, and it was said to him, delete this and correct this, but do you think this is sufficient and beneficial?
The student : How do you mean? It is sufficient and beneficial, why is it not beneficial?
Shuqara: How? This book, may Allah bless you, this book has spread and the hands of readers have taken it, and perhaps whoever loves the book, whoever loves Salman, will read it once and twice and three times until he comprehends it and says there is nothing in it...
The student : There will be a second edition...
Shuqara: ... Do you think that everyone who reads this book will go back to buying the book again and read...
The student : ... If the mufti issues a fatwa, then it goes and people act upon it, and then he retracts it...

The Shaykh : I am observing that the brother has words in his mind that we want to hear...
Shuqara: Who is it?

The Shaykh : Bring it so we can see...
The student : Meaning, according to what... on the understandingThe Shaykh : Salman, of course, I read the book before this... the brother 'Ali, meaning if a person reads the book completely and examines what he wants, he does not want what you referred to a moment ago, which is taking over positions in the state, because he writes guidance for the callers. He spoke in a general manner and elaborated on it, then at the end he specified, meaning as if he intends to guide the pulpits and the field of the call. And as you mentioned, he mentioned secularism and the destructive schools of thought, and who confronts these schools of thought, and who fears confronting these schools of thought so that he is not harmed or harmed by them...
Shuqara: "Harmed," stick with "harmed."
The student : They harm him, whether it is fear of them or a comprehensive attack on him by these enemies who oppose Islam openly. They have become, especially in their countries now, a campaign until they were able to openly insult the scholars whom they used to be afraid to mention by name in the field. So, Allah knows best, of course, after reading the book...

The Shaykh : My brother, let us hear the speech and see his explanations...
The student : Our Shaykh, it is necessary to read the book completely...

The Shaykh : But, may Allah bless you, reading the book completely, here you are and here he is, you have read the book completely, so what is your answer to these explanations? Does he answer them and we stop there and say these are things that mislead others, yes...
Shuqara: The brother... Abu 'Abdullah, there is still a continuation...

The Shaykh : ... .
The student : In this issue, he specified that his school of thought in this issue, because I read the book...

The Shaykh : My brother, when you say "in this issue," what is the issue? The issue is a title, but it has branches...
The student : For example, what does he say now? "And often these hidden evil forces conspire to tighten the narratives of alienation and spread fitnah, and they unite against the Sunnah and its people. And often the rulers and authorities who deviate from the Shari'ah and stray from the methodology of the Prophethood find in the customs and habits of people an excuse to leave the wrongs, indeed to spread and disseminate them, and to neglect enjoining good and forbidding evil and to suppress it, and to restrict its people and deepen their disturbance... those who claim to be of the religion, from the Sufis, the mercenaries, the self-interested, and their like, who rub against it to show their concern for the religion and their care for it, in exchange for enabling them to spread their misguided paths among the Muslims and promote them, in accordance with the saying of the Exalted: " Meaning, he clarifies that these people, for example, are not left in their places and positions, while those who are more deserving and better than them from the people of the call take these positions from them. They approach the sultans and take these positions and harm the call.
Another student: Now, the written pulpits in the newspapers, who controls them? Who confronts them in these positions?

The Shaykh : Regarding the issue of...
The student : He is saying, for example, the Imamate in religion. He also spoke explicitly about the Imamate in religion...

The Shaykh : We are at a certain point here. If there is a position where a Muslim fears he will be led astray, and he knows that by being in this position he is performing an obligation, performing an obligation related to enjoining good and forbidding evil, for reform, benefiting the ummah, and so on, but he fears for himself, what is the position of the writer who says all these words? He describes him as weak, that is how we understand it. So you, who read the book from beginning to end, what is your answer?
The student : I will give you an answer, if Allah wills. When he mentioned, it is fine.
Another student : Please.
The student : When he mentioned the words of al-Sakhtiyani and mentioned al-Thawri, then he said: and the words of the Salaf are understood in this way, which is confronting. Because al-Thawri is known, and the Salaf were confronting despite their fear of taking the lead, but they did not leave the call and confronting these innovators and...
Shuqara: Do you mean the position...
The student : Confronting matters of collective obligation.
Another student: Is it himself...

The Shaykh : What is its name, may Allah will it?
The student : Bara'ah.

The Shaykh : Bara'ah, what a name, may Allah will it. I seek refuge in the perfect words of Allah from every Shaytan, and from every male and female evil eye. What is this... Bara'ah Bassamah...
The student : What Allah willed.

The Shaykh : Heh.
Al-Halabi : It is beautiful, by Allah. Our Shaykh, what a name, may Allah will it, it is really pleasing to everyone, may Allah will it!