A discussion on clarifying the difference between practical disbelief and creedal disbelief.

The student : And the other hadith: If it is said that these are among the actions, i.e., practical disbelief, and that practical disbelief, in absolute terms, does not take one out of the religion, even if one mocks or ridicules the religion, or throws the mushaf in the trash, for example.

The Shaykh : Who says this?
The student : No, I am the one saying it; I am giving an example.

The Shaykh : How?
The student : I am giving an example now and I want the answer to it, yes. So, is it said that all of these fall under this practical disbelief?

The Shaykh : Do you know what practical disbelief and creedal disbelief are?
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : What is the ruling on the one who mocks?
The student : He might say that he is a believer and that he is!

The Shaykh : Do not be ambiguous, may Allah be pleased with you. As long as you want to remove the confusion, be straightforward. What is the ruling on the one who mocks the Book of Allah or places his foot on the Book of Allah? Is this practical disbelief or creedal disbelief in your view?
The student : It indicates that he is a disbeliever with creedal disbelief.

The Shaykh : There is no need for so much talk. Is it practical disbelief or creedal disbelief? "The best speech is that which is brief and indicative." What prevents you from saying: "It is creedal disbelief"? Why do you avoid the direct answer and say: "It indicates such and such"? The question is clear: Is it practical disbelief in what you understand, or creedal disbelief? The answer: Practical disbelief or creedal disbelief. What is the answer in your view?
The student : What I understand is that it is practical disbelief, but certainly this takes one out of the religion because it indicates that this is not in his creed; he is not a believer; he is a mushrik (one who associates partners with Allah).

The Shaykh : So, it seems, and Allah knows best from your answer, which is your saying: "It seems to me that it is practical disbelief!" Practical disbelief is like practical hypocrisy, and creedal disbelief is like creedal disbelief!
The student : Creedal hypocrisy.

The Shaykh : What is practical hypocrisy?
The student : Doing the actions of the hypocrites, such as lying.

The Shaykh : Okay, so does this make one a disbeliever?
The student: No.

The Shaykh : Okay, when does one become a disbeliever?
The student : If he believes that it is permissible, for example.

The Shaykh: If what?
The student : As if he believes it is permissible, or that he displays Islam while concealing disbelief!

The Shaykh : Well, how does it enter your mind that a believer, who believes that this is the Book of Allah, truth and verity, would trample it with his foot?! You only looked at his action and said: It is practical disbelief. But you did not look at what this action is based on, what is settled in his heart. Do you combine in your mind that a believer in the Book of Allah places his foot on the words of Allah?
The student : Not at all.

The Shaykh : So how did you say: "It seems to me that it is practical disbelief"?
The student : Yes, because I want to reach this point so that I can grasp this answer, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : But it is not permissible for you to say, may Allah bless you: "What appears to me is that it is practical disbelief," because you will soon say: "No, rather it is disbelief itself." This is not appropriate, because debate, research, and discussion should be such that the believer is straightforward with his Muslim brother, and does not go around in circles until he reaches a hidden trap, and so on. So you are one of two men: either you believe that this action is creedal disbelief that leads to eternal abode in the Fire, or you believe, as we say regarding that detail you mentioned, that you were present for and I do not know if you were present for this point! We have two men who abandon prayer, both of them: one believes that it is an individual obligation (fard 'ayn) but is negligent in it, and he asks Allah to guide him and forgive him, and so on. The other says, as some people say in your country: "No purification, no prayer." Now, that time has passed. Are they equal, for example? No, they are not equal, for example. So you, may Allah bless you, gave one of the worst examples, and yet your answer was as I asked you: "What seems to me is that it is practical disbelief." You did not look at the action that indicates what is settled in the heart, which is mocking the verses of Allah. So this is not practical disbelief, because practical disbelief is like practical hypocrisy; his practical hypocrisy is different from his creed. His creed is sound, unlike creedal hypocrisy. So the hypocrite who is eternally in the Fire displays Islam, prays with the Muslims, recites the Qur'an, and so on, but his heart is full of disbelief, so he is in the lowest depth of the Fire. But a Muslim who prays and fasts, but lies, as you said, or makes a promise and does not fulfill it, this is practical disbelief, not creedal. When does his disbelief become creedal? If he believes that this lying is not forbidden (haram), if he believes that breaking a promise is not forbidden, and so on. What did you come up with?
The student : The same issue.

The Shaykh: Go ahead.