Discussion on the ruling regarding touching the private parts of a man and a woman

The questioner : In the issue of a woman’s worship, we mentioned three opinions. So, why did you not direct the question?

The Shaykh : No, no. How did we prefer the view? We preferred the view that the ablution is not broken, even with desire. Yes, even if it spreads. This is an answer to the brother’s question. Yes, it is a place where it is likely to occur. This breaks their ablution, and it also breaks their ablution based on the hadith of Abu Hurayrah: a man feels something in prayer and imagines that something has come out of him. And these winds in the belly are a place where exit is more likely, and yet he said: “He does not leave the prayer until he hears a sound or finds a wind.”

The questioner : If we say that we have preferred the view that touching a woman with desire does not break the ablution, and that a woman passing in front of the one praying cuts off his prayer,

The Shaykh : Yes, it is not from the other side. I mean, first, the reasoning we mentioned for a woman passing between the man and his barrier is a reasoning not accepted by some scholars, because some scholars say this is an act of devotion (ta‘abbudi). But according to that view, because the cause is that it removes humility, and this is what is used as evidence for the obligation of humility in prayer, this is the reason. It is not for the sake of ritual impurity, but its connection begins when he thinks about her. Yes.

The questioner : He says that the woman is not a place for the private parts, therefore if the private parts of a woman are with a woman, she should be aware of her matters if she does not feel it.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : So how does it happen if the touching is with desire?

The Shaykh : I do not say this is the reasoning; the original state is the absence of that. The original state is the absence of this. I mean, is this a departure from the natural disposition? No, this is the reasoning of the school of thought, but I told you that a man touching a boy breaks the ablution, so likewise a woman touching with desire, a woman touching another woman with desire breaks the ablution. But the original issue in my view is that touching with desire, if nothing comes out, does not break the ablution absolutely.

The questioner : The hadith of Talq says in prayer he touched his private part, and the hadith of Basrah is general. The point of disagreement among scholars is because it is conceivable that a man relieves himself in prayer, meaning he is wearing clothes and there is a barrier between him and his private part, and it is impossible for him to touch it with desire because the two causes are absent in prayer. How is that? I mean, what was the disagreement that took place between them?

The Shaykh : They did not say it that way, because the man’s statement “I touched my private part” is known in the Arabic language to require direct contact.

The questioner : But he asked him about a specific case, saying to him: In prayer, O Messenger of Allah.

The Shaykh : It is all the same. Like if she imagines that something is flowing in prayer, it is the same thing. If you were not in prayer and you had wind in your belly and you doubted, you do not have to perform ablution.

The questioner : But these people asked about a specific case, and Basrah asked, and also heard the hadith from a second case.

The Shaykh : Yes, yes. This is the point of reconciliation. We say the reconciliation between them is that it is only on the basis of recommendation. We reconcile them for this. Yes. Regarding the desire that is a place where ritual impurity is likely. Yes. Yes.

The questioner : So this cause, do you not say that the text of the book, if Allah wills, speaks of the error?

The Shaykh : Yes, but who says this? This does not mean it breaks the ablution absolutely, i.e., with desire. The reason is that they reasoned and said: because if it is with desire, something might come out and he is not aware of it. We answer that there is no breaking of the ablution unless the thing comes out, because all rulings are attached to existence. Therefore, regarding the woman who is careful, the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said: Yes, if she sees the water, then the ritual impurity must manifest.