Is a debt repaid at its purchasing power?
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The questioner : The point is, the man was discussing an issue, raising it, and it is indeed a stirring one. The reality is that nowadays, if someone does a favor and lends a person, say, a hundred thousand pounds, and he is to return it after five or six years, will the purchasing power of that hundred thousand pounds be the same? Or, for example, a hundred thousand riyals that used to buy a car now don't buy even a quarter of a car of the same model, or a house. This is, of course, with a non-gold currency that is not stable, like the Lebanese pound, for instance. The one who is owed the debt might have a thousand notes... So, can one lend to a person and say, for example, "I am lending you an amount equivalent to buying a Buick of the current model, and you need to return it to me after three or four years by buying me a Buick, but you can give me cash, do you understand how that works?"
The Shaykh : I understood perfectly.
The questioner : Yes, or he says to him, "I am lending you this amount now, which buys a kilo of silver or a kilo of gold. When you return it to me, brother, I do not want any increase. If it is short, you have to buy me the equivalent of a kilo of gold on that day." Is this debt permissible?
The Shaykh : As for the Buick car, it is not permissible. As for gold or silver, it is permissible.
The questioner : The equivalent, the equivalent.
The Shaykh : Why? In your mind, he can say to you...
The questioner : Or a house, or
The Shaykh : Anything, the method is the same, but just for clarification...
The questioner : Yes
The Shaykh : The Buick car is permissible, just like silver and gold, a house, and real estate, and anything else. But there is a difference between these items, like the car and the house and similar matters, and gold and silver.
Of course, if you had not brought up the example of gold and silver after the Buick car, I would have told you that this condition is permissible, provided that the car, after five years, which is the time of repayment, has not increased in price solely because the currency dropped, but there is also an increase in quality. Yes.
The questioner : Quality.
The Shaykh : Or an increase in goods in general, do you understand? So this increase should be taken into account, do you understand?
The questioner : Yes
The Shaykh : Yes, and therefore I distinguished in my final answer when you brought up gold and silver after the Buick car. I told you, gold and silver, yes, but the Buick car, no, because
The questioner : ...
The Shaykh : Yes, but gold and silver... these paper currencies, as is well known to everyone, do not have intrinsic value. Their value is conventional for the one who saves them, according to the old custom.
The questioner : The old custom? No, but recently, no, it is not saved.
The Shaykh : No problem. From the past until now, I hear this answer and I find no alternative. In the past, a specific proportion of gold corresponded to every currency. Now, what corresponds to it? If nothing corresponds to it, that is not reasonable.
The questioner : I asked specialists in economics about this issue.
The Shaykh : Yes
The questioner : And at a level, we can say, at a high level in the Arab countries. One of them was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Economics. He is Indian; I forgot his name. He is at King Abdulaziz University.
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : The answer was that the currency... when the idea of currency and its gold backing first started, it was about sixty percent actual gold. But now, they say the currency is controlled by several things: gold and its low value... political considerations, harvests and production for commercial purposes... meaning, the commercial balance in general. The political role, the political word, has become very heavy in determining the value of the currency. This is
The Shaykh : Yes, I am saying this, but what is the result? What is the value of this dinar, or riyal, or Syrian currency? What is its value? What is its equivalent? This is what we do not get an answer for. As for the political and economic factors and I don't know what else are influencing factors, that is a given in general, but what is
The questioner : ... they tell you that gold is stored for it in the treasury... it is written on it...
The Shaykh : Okay, what corresponds to it? What do we say?
The questioner : Just agreements and pacts between the countries of the world and the big gangs controlling the world's capital.
The Shaykh : Very well.
The questioner : This is it.
The Shaykh : Very well.
The questioner : They throw out a little
The student: The World Bank.
The questioner : The World Bank, that one has policies and is controlled. They put things on the market and hit things and take things out, and no one understands anything, and they are on a global level.
The Shaykh : All of this is understood, but I did not get the answer. Do we consider it a commodity that can rise and fall and drop?
The questioner : No, they consider it a type of currency, something fixed that has no relation to gold. You cannot say... gold, nor silver, nor anything. It is a fixed currency agreed upon, other than gold and silver. This is... that... they consider it gold? No. They consider it silver? No. What is it? He said it is a third type of currency they agreed upon and put in place. There was a lot of gold backing it, and now its role is shrinking. It is not fixed. It is just agreements and a World Fund.
The Shaykh : Okay, the one who says this
The questioner : Yes
The Shaykh : It is not necessary for this person to be a jurist. This person himself, for example, ten years ago, lent a person a thousand Syrian pounds. Now he has... a thousand Syrian pounds. He is this philosopher with this philosophy.
The questioner : I did not ask him.
The Shaykh : I did not ask him, that is true, I did not ask him, but what do you think his answer would be?
The questioner : I think no.
The student: No, because the reality is that the economy has changed, so one cannot be certain.
The questioner : What do you know...
The student: No, the reality, the thing that is real, this is the reality.
Another student: The Shaykh says that you have the right to take an increase over the value, you take it in gold value.
The questioner : I am now asking the Shaykh because, in truth, we are being cheated. Do not blame me. I am lending, and they gave it to me...
The student: ... it is permissible. You must give him his right according to the purchasing power.
The questioner : Now, I lent a person last year. I lent a person fifty thousand pounds when I could buy a house for fifty thousand pounds. Now, if he gives it to me, I cannot buy even a bicycle... I can, now, if he gives me five hundred pounds, it becomes usury. Five hundred thousand if he says to him, "Give me five hundred thousand instead of the previous fifty thousand."
The student: Usury, O Shaykh.
The questioner : If he agrees, what is it called? Usury, meaning?
The Shaykh : No, it is not called usury. Usury is when it is currency for currency exactly, plus an increase. But I said to some of them
The questioner : It is currency for currency, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : Currency for currency plus an increase, meaning the value of the currency when you paid it.
The questioner : Immediately.
The Shaykh : Its value when you received it, plus an increase.
The student: For example, look, I am with you. How many years ago did you lend the person?
The questioner : Ten years ago.
The student: Ten years ago. Ten years ago, how many pounds was the dollar?
The questioner : It was four pounds.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : No, it became a lot now.
The questioner : It was forty pounds, forty-five pounds.
The student: So you take... like the dollar.
The questioner : Yes, but it is not enough... meaning, now... I might work, or I say to him, "Brother, I did give you currency, but I want it back according to a specific difference that was agreed upon."
The Shaykh : I understood perfectly.
The questioner : Yes, or he says to him, "I am lending you this amount now, which buys a kilo of silver or a kilo of gold. When you return it to me, brother, I do not want any increase. If it is short, you have to buy me the equivalent of a kilo of gold on that day." Is this debt permissible?
The Shaykh : As for the Buick car, it is not permissible. As for gold or silver, it is permissible.
The questioner : The equivalent, the equivalent.
The Shaykh : Why? In your mind, he can say to you...
The questioner : Or a house, or
The Shaykh : Anything, the method is the same, but just for clarification...
The questioner : Yes
The Shaykh : The Buick car is permissible, just like silver and gold, a house, and real estate, and anything else. But there is a difference between these items, like the car and the house and similar matters, and gold and silver.
Of course, if you had not brought up the example of gold and silver after the Buick car, I would have told you that this condition is permissible, provided that the car, after five years, which is the time of repayment, has not increased in price solely because the currency dropped, but there is also an increase in quality. Yes.
The questioner : Quality.
The Shaykh : Or an increase in goods in general, do you understand? So this increase should be taken into account, do you understand?
The questioner : Yes
The Shaykh : Yes, and therefore I distinguished in my final answer when you brought up gold and silver after the Buick car. I told you, gold and silver, yes, but the Buick car, no, because
The questioner : ...
The Shaykh : Yes, but gold and silver... these paper currencies, as is well known to everyone, do not have intrinsic value. Their value is conventional for the one who saves them, according to the old custom.
The questioner : The old custom? No, but recently, no, it is not saved.
The Shaykh : No problem. From the past until now, I hear this answer and I find no alternative. In the past, a specific proportion of gold corresponded to every currency. Now, what corresponds to it? If nothing corresponds to it, that is not reasonable.
The questioner : I asked specialists in economics about this issue.
The Shaykh : Yes
The questioner : And at a level, we can say, at a high level in the Arab countries. One of them was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Economics. He is Indian; I forgot his name. He is at King Abdulaziz University.
The Shaykh : Yes.
The questioner : The answer was that the currency... when the idea of currency and its gold backing first started, it was about sixty percent actual gold. But now, they say the currency is controlled by several things: gold and its low value... political considerations, harvests and production for commercial purposes... meaning, the commercial balance in general. The political role, the political word, has become very heavy in determining the value of the currency. This is
The Shaykh : Yes, I am saying this, but what is the result? What is the value of this dinar, or riyal, or Syrian currency? What is its value? What is its equivalent? This is what we do not get an answer for. As for the political and economic factors and I don't know what else are influencing factors, that is a given in general, but what is
The questioner : ... they tell you that gold is stored for it in the treasury... it is written on it...
The Shaykh : Okay, what corresponds to it? What do we say?
The questioner : Just agreements and pacts between the countries of the world and the big gangs controlling the world's capital.
The Shaykh : Very well.
The questioner : This is it.
The Shaykh : Very well.
The questioner : They throw out a little
The student: The World Bank.
The questioner : The World Bank, that one has policies and is controlled. They put things on the market and hit things and take things out, and no one understands anything, and they are on a global level.
The Shaykh : All of this is understood, but I did not get the answer. Do we consider it a commodity that can rise and fall and drop?
The questioner : No, they consider it a type of currency, something fixed that has no relation to gold. You cannot say... gold, nor silver, nor anything. It is a fixed currency agreed upon, other than gold and silver. This is... that... they consider it gold? No. They consider it silver? No. What is it? He said it is a third type of currency they agreed upon and put in place. There was a lot of gold backing it, and now its role is shrinking. It is not fixed. It is just agreements and a World Fund.
The Shaykh : Okay, the one who says this
The questioner : Yes
The Shaykh : It is not necessary for this person to be a jurist. This person himself, for example, ten years ago, lent a person a thousand Syrian pounds. Now he has... a thousand Syrian pounds. He is this philosopher with this philosophy.
The questioner : I did not ask him.
The Shaykh : I did not ask him, that is true, I did not ask him, but what do you think his answer would be?
The questioner : I think no.
The student: No, because the reality is that the economy has changed, so one cannot be certain.
The questioner : What do you know...
The student: No, the reality, the thing that is real, this is the reality.
Another student: The Shaykh says that you have the right to take an increase over the value, you take it in gold value.
The questioner : I am now asking the Shaykh because, in truth, we are being cheated. Do not blame me. I am lending, and they gave it to me...
The student: ... it is permissible. You must give him his right according to the purchasing power.
The questioner : Now, I lent a person last year. I lent a person fifty thousand pounds when I could buy a house for fifty thousand pounds. Now, if he gives it to me, I cannot buy even a bicycle... I can, now, if he gives me five hundred pounds, it becomes usury. Five hundred thousand if he says to him, "Give me five hundred thousand instead of the previous fifty thousand."
The student: Usury, O Shaykh.
The questioner : If he agrees, what is it called? Usury, meaning?
The Shaykh : No, it is not called usury. Usury is when it is currency for currency exactly, plus an increase. But I said to some of them
The questioner : It is currency for currency, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : Currency for currency plus an increase, meaning the value of the currency when you paid it.
The questioner : Immediately.
The Shaykh : Its value when you received it, plus an increase.
The student: For example, look, I am with you. How many years ago did you lend the person?
The questioner : Ten years ago.
The student: Ten years ago. Ten years ago, how many pounds was the dollar?
The questioner : It was four pounds.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : No, it became a lot now.
The questioner : It was forty pounds, forty-five pounds.
The student: So you take... like the dollar.
The questioner : Yes, but it is not enough... meaning, now... I might work, or I say to him, "Brother, I did give you currency, but I want it back according to a specific difference that was agreed upon."