What is the ruling on placing money in the trust fund of interest-based banks? Is that a form of cooperation in sin and transgression?
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The questioner : Let us return to the scenario that our brother Abu Abdullah described.
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
The questioner : ...the fund that is inside the interest-based bank... the fee that they pay to the interest-based bank, as we hear from you, O honorable Shaykh, that this is not permissible specifically on the basis of cooperation in sin and transgression, meaning that we are supporting this institution...?
The Shaykh : And when you trade with them, you sell them your goods, your bakery, the bread.
The questioner : So all these matters, meaning for the same institution, I believe, based on the knowledge we received from our Shaykh, that we do not deal with them at all, absolutely not, and that is what we have taken, meaning as Muslims.
The Shaykh : No, that is correct, we are on this path that we have taken, but when you sell the bread to the bank, it will be placed in the bank, is that not so?
The questioner : Yes, it is not permissible to sell it; I have the information...
The Shaykh : I am the one saying this, not you, but the issue is completely different here. When you place this device, you are helping them to establish the bank with its roots and foundations, but in this scenario, you are helping them to proceed on the lawful, prescribed path. There is a very big difference. The device you want to sell them helps the bank itself as a project established upon disobedience to Allah. Let us return to the previous example: you are a baker and you sell bread to the owner of the bank; what is said about this sale, is it permissible or not?
The questioner : Is it permissible?
The Shaykh : Why? Because it has no direct relation to helping the bank. Okay, this transaction has no relation to helping the bank except on the lawful, prescribed path, whereas any device you give them and any service you perform for them, that helps the bank as a whole. But in this specific transaction, there is no such assistance. And as I said earlier, I wish we could deal with interest-based banks and convert all their transactions into legally permissible transactions.
The questioner : That is the correct thing... I wish, O our Shaykh, if Allah wills.
The Shaykh : But this part exists, it is not just a wish.
The questioner : They hope that the Muslims and those who are afraid of these things will come and put their money... the payment. But if all the people started putting money in this bank's fund, I believe there would be no interest-based bank, it would not be a bank, if it relied only on the... meaning the issue would not become Islamic.
The Shaykh : Good, how would it not become so?
The questioner : It would not become Islamic in the concept that the Muslims want.
The Shaykh : My brother, it would not become Islamic, and when it wants to become a one hundred percent Islamic bank; how do you imagine it would happen in one leap?
The questioner : No, of course, it is impossible.
The Shaykh : It is impossible. So, if we can achieve one step out of a hundred steps, we do not say that this step makes the bank Islamic. We are planting a seed, as long as it is permissible, and if we can plant a second seed, that is good. If we cannot,[Al-Baqarah 2:286]. We must distinguish between what is direct assistance to the bank with something, in which case we say: the means have the ruling of the ends. If the means leads to what is forbidden, it is forbidden; if it leads to what is lawful, it is lawful. This assistance in this scenario does not lead to what is forbidden, it leads to what is lawful; achieving a legally permissible transaction; so there is no problem with it.
The questioner : But the story of... Abu Sa'id's invoice... we pay the price of the shop, when they find out, O our Shaykh, when it reaches him.
The Shaykh : How? Like that, when it reaches...
The questioner : Like that, when it reaches...
The Shaykh : Yes, meaning this Housing Bank benefits from it?
The questioner : It benefits.
The Shaykh : Yes, that is different.
The questioner : It benefits; meaning you put money in it today, for example, suppose you put in ten thousand with participants in it... today it does not work anything from the central bank like that... it uses these ten thousand that it has; meaning they entered its treasury, and this is not my sin. I am the one who went and put it in to clear my conscience regarding a specific issue. I did not help the bank at all with anything... the lawful.
The Shaykh : No, no, that is correct, but he is saying there is a difference, meaning you give the Housing Bank directly, yes, or you give the institution; if it is possible, meaning this, meaning removing the intermediary that benefits from your money.
The questioner : ...it becomes not the money of the man who paid, it becomes the money of the institution?
The Shaykh : Yes, but without entering this path if it is possible.
The questioner : ...we pay, O our Shaykh, in the bank; is this forbidden? Is it religiously forbidden for me to pay in the bank?
The Shaykh : Are you choosing before anything else, or are you not choosing?
The questioner : I am choosing, of course, it is my choice.
The Shaykh : You give this bank?
The questioner : With the choice I want, I give it, I give the bank or I give.
The Shaykh : The Housing Bank?
The questioner : No, no, any bank branch of its branches in the banks; meaning in "Al-Maysan" - for example - there is a branch of the Housing Bank.
The Shaykh : What do you give it?
The questioner : The value of the electricity bill, for example, or the water or the telephone, after the bill arrives, meaning in "Al-Maysan" they send someone to pay it at the bank. If it is not available, they send it to... the one who knows them directly at the institution, they send it to him.
The Shaykh : This is more lawful.
The questioner : But if he did the first action; is it religiously permissible or is it forbidden and does he sin for this?
The Shaykh : There is assistance, there is assistance to the bank, meaning; because he will certainly exploit this money.
The questioner : The money did not become the property of the man who paid it, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : My brother, for this money to reach the institution, it is possible that the bank uses it.
The questioner : Meaning we say: the man who pays the bank and does not pay the institution is sinful, O Shaykh?
The Shaykh : If the path of the institution is available to him, he is sinful, and he has helped in evil.
I have an example, Abu Latfi, this is my wife's brother, I do not explain his problem except that the bank employees here exploit other people's money in a specific way. Do you know Abu Latfi? He comes from Baghdad with transactions that they transferred to him here, like this many dinars, do you see? He comes here and they tell him: the transaction has not arrived yet!! He did not come here except based on the fact that he has what they call...? Certificates and data from a bank there in Iraq that the transaction was transferred to Oman. He comes here and they tell him: it has not arrived yet, and he goes for a week, two weeks, three weeks. He sends a message to his son there by phone, please, O people, here they say, the answer comes confirming that the transaction arrived; what does that mean? It means that these thousands are being held here and they are dealing with the usurers and earning them one hundred, two hundred, and so on. When the inquirer exhausts them, saying it has arrived; they admit that it arrived. So, putting money in the bank and it remaining there means direct assistance.
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
The questioner : ...the fund that is inside the interest-based bank... the fee that they pay to the interest-based bank, as we hear from you, O honorable Shaykh, that this is not permissible specifically on the basis of cooperation in sin and transgression, meaning that we are supporting this institution...?
The Shaykh : And when you trade with them, you sell them your goods, your bakery, the bread.
The questioner : So all these matters, meaning for the same institution, I believe, based on the knowledge we received from our Shaykh, that we do not deal with them at all, absolutely not, and that is what we have taken, meaning as Muslims.
The Shaykh : No, that is correct, we are on this path that we have taken, but when you sell the bread to the bank, it will be placed in the bank, is that not so?
The questioner : Yes, it is not permissible to sell it; I have the information...
The Shaykh : I am the one saying this, not you, but the issue is completely different here. When you place this device, you are helping them to establish the bank with its roots and foundations, but in this scenario, you are helping them to proceed on the lawful, prescribed path. There is a very big difference. The device you want to sell them helps the bank itself as a project established upon disobedience to Allah. Let us return to the previous example: you are a baker and you sell bread to the owner of the bank; what is said about this sale, is it permissible or not?
The questioner : Is it permissible?
The Shaykh : Why? Because it has no direct relation to helping the bank. Okay, this transaction has no relation to helping the bank except on the lawful, prescribed path, whereas any device you give them and any service you perform for them, that helps the bank as a whole. But in this specific transaction, there is no such assistance. And as I said earlier, I wish we could deal with interest-based banks and convert all their transactions into legally permissible transactions.
The questioner : That is the correct thing... I wish, O our Shaykh, if Allah wills.
The Shaykh : But this part exists, it is not just a wish.
The questioner : They hope that the Muslims and those who are afraid of these things will come and put their money... the payment. But if all the people started putting money in this bank's fund, I believe there would be no interest-based bank, it would not be a bank, if it relied only on the... meaning the issue would not become Islamic.
The Shaykh : Good, how would it not become so?
The questioner : It would not become Islamic in the concept that the Muslims want.
The Shaykh : My brother, it would not become Islamic, and when it wants to become a one hundred percent Islamic bank; how do you imagine it would happen in one leap?
The questioner : No, of course, it is impossible.
The Shaykh : It is impossible. So, if we can achieve one step out of a hundred steps, we do not say that this step makes the bank Islamic. We are planting a seed, as long as it is permissible, and if we can plant a second seed, that is good. If we cannot,
Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity
لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَاThe questioner : But the story of... Abu Sa'id's invoice... we pay the price of the shop, when they find out, O our Shaykh, when it reaches him.
The Shaykh : How? Like that, when it reaches...
The questioner : Like that, when it reaches...
The Shaykh : Yes, meaning this Housing Bank benefits from it?
The questioner : It benefits.
The Shaykh : Yes, that is different.
The questioner : It benefits; meaning you put money in it today, for example, suppose you put in ten thousand with participants in it... today it does not work anything from the central bank like that... it uses these ten thousand that it has; meaning they entered its treasury, and this is not my sin. I am the one who went and put it in to clear my conscience regarding a specific issue. I did not help the bank at all with anything... the lawful.
The Shaykh : No, no, that is correct, but he is saying there is a difference, meaning you give the Housing Bank directly, yes, or you give the institution; if it is possible, meaning this, meaning removing the intermediary that benefits from your money.
The questioner : ...it becomes not the money of the man who paid, it becomes the money of the institution?
The Shaykh : Yes, but without entering this path if it is possible.
The questioner : ...we pay, O our Shaykh, in the bank; is this forbidden? Is it religiously forbidden for me to pay in the bank?
The Shaykh : Are you choosing before anything else, or are you not choosing?
The questioner : I am choosing, of course, it is my choice.
The Shaykh : You give this bank?
The questioner : With the choice I want, I give it, I give the bank or I give.
The Shaykh : The Housing Bank?
The questioner : No, no, any bank branch of its branches in the banks; meaning in "Al-Maysan" - for example - there is a branch of the Housing Bank.
The Shaykh : What do you give it?
The questioner : The value of the electricity bill, for example, or the water or the telephone, after the bill arrives, meaning in "Al-Maysan" they send someone to pay it at the bank. If it is not available, they send it to... the one who knows them directly at the institution, they send it to him.
The Shaykh : This is more lawful.
The questioner : But if he did the first action; is it religiously permissible or is it forbidden and does he sin for this?
The Shaykh : There is assistance, there is assistance to the bank, meaning; because he will certainly exploit this money.
The questioner : The money did not become the property of the man who paid it, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : My brother, for this money to reach the institution, it is possible that the bank uses it.
The questioner : Meaning we say: the man who pays the bank and does not pay the institution is sinful, O Shaykh?
The Shaykh : If the path of the institution is available to him, he is sinful, and he has helped in evil.
I have an example, Abu Latfi, this is my wife's brother, I do not explain his problem except that the bank employees here exploit other people's money in a specific way. Do you know Abu Latfi? He comes from Baghdad with transactions that they transferred to him here, like this many dinars, do you see? He comes here and they tell him: the transaction has not arrived yet!! He did not come here except based on the fact that he has what they call...? Certificates and data from a bank there in Iraq that the transaction was transferred to Oman. He comes here and they tell him: it has not arrived yet, and he goes for a week, two weeks, three weeks. He sends a message to his son there by phone, please, O people, here they say, the answer comes confirming that the transaction arrived; what does that mean? It means that these thousands are being held here and they are dealing with the usurers and earning them one hundred, two hundred, and so on. When the inquirer exhausts them, saying it has arrived; they admit that it arrived. So, putting money in the bank and it remaining there means direct assistance.
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.