The Dealing of Charitable Associations with Interest-Based Banks.

The Shaykh : I would like, if you permit, to add a note regarding the professor's statement. Do you imagine an Islamic, Salafi charitable association having a safe to keep the available funds, where this money is not placed in one of the banks? Is this a thing that exists? Inform me with knowledge.

The questioner : O Shaykh, regarding this topic, there is no doubt that it must exist, but...
Abu Malik : He did not say it must exist; he asked if it exists?

The questioner : The governments require that the capital, or that they have capital, be in the social affairs, meaning in the bank.
Abu Malik : This is the answer.

The questioner : But I say that what the brother Abu Malik pointed to applies to all other charitable works. For example, this might apply to justice, the judiciary, the imams of the mosques... preaching, Hajj. All these matters require dealing with the state.

The Shaykh : I do not think you are saying that all these matters are the same?

The questioner : The matter comes down to the fact that those in charge assess the benefits and harms in such a topic. Otherwise, one should generalize that all works should not involve dealing [with banks].

The Shaykh : If we stop at your word "those in charge," are these people in charge from among the people of knowledge, virtue, righteousness, and piety? Let us assume they are, is that not so?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : And they see that depositing charitable money in a bank that deals in riba is permissible?

The questioner : They say, for example ... .

The Shaykh : Excuse me, I am asking a clear question. You say "permissible." You say yes or no. You do not need to tire yourself, and perhaps others, by saying "they say, we know what they say." But you, inform me: do these people, whom we assumed are from among the people of knowledge, goodness, and righteousness, see that depositing the money of zakah and the money of charity in a bank that deals in riba is permissible?

The questioner : Yes, they see that, and this does not contradict their knowledge, righteousness, and piety, because it is a matter of ijtihad (independent legal reasoning).

The Shaykh : You added, may Allah reward you with good. And how do they interpret the saying of him (peace and blessings be upon him) ?

The questioner : They do not consume riba.

The Shaykh : Are they its agents? So they consume riba, or is there no difference between the two? If that is not their answer, what is their answer as far as you know?

The questioner : Allah knows best.
Abu Malik : Our Shaykh, the noble brother's hadith, the noble brother's statement, actually speaks to the general problem under whose shadow the Muslims live in all their regions, as a result of the control of the Western capitalist system over the lives of Muslims in all their affairs. We give an example of this, and this is a matter in which all of us may be involved. None of us is without a car or thinking of buying a car. There is no doubt that the laws prevent you from owning a car unless you have an insurance policy kept with you. So one of two things: either you are so scrupulous that you refuse to buy a car and walk on foot, at a time when you know that the car has become a necessity of life, or you buy a car, and buying the car necessarily involves you in this policy to put it in the car pocket to show it when it is required to be shown. So what do we say in such a case? Is it permissible to deal to this extent that is needed, or is it not permissible to own the car? We await the answer from our Shaykh, may Allah bless you.

The Shaykh : It occurred to me to say, regarding the brother's statement just now when you said they are not the same, do you remember? Now, a baker who sells bread to the manager of the interest-based bank, is this baker equal in aiding this great usurer in his riba to the employee working for him? Are they equal, for example? This is what I wanted to say. So when you deposit your money in the bank and you are able to preserve it, you are not compelled to be an agent for riba. So what is the excuse of the Muslims today, that even in charitable associations they deposit their money and defile it with the defilement of riba by placing it in the bank? It is what the professor pointed to just now: the system in these countries is a capitalist system that does not allow an association to have a safe in the Islamic way. But there is an exit, because the truth is that Islam, with the vastness of its legislations, which are countless regarding its rules, has made an exit for everything. So now, instead of depositing the money in the bank and the bank benefiting from it, we deposit it, if we are not able to take a special safe with its employees and guards and so on—this requires a special study—if it is not possible otherwise, one rents a safe from the bank and pays the fee for this safe to preserve this money, to which the hand of the interest-based bank does not extend. This is an exit from the exits. Why do charitable associations not resort to it? Because they do not think about treating matters within the limits of the Shari'ah rulings. Therefore, we are in need of what we mentioned just now, of the necessity of establishing the Shari'ah rulings in all our transactions, including charitable associations. However, we return and mention that we do not advise our brothers, the students of knowledge, to occupy themselves with this charitable work, because there are other people for this work who have not been created with a love for knowledge and a desire to seek knowledge. So every field has its place. And what the professor pointed to just now, that these associations may lead to hatred, enmity, and hostility and so on, this is, unfortunately, a reality. But in my belief, it is necessary to do what is necessary, to realize the warning contained in the saying of Allah the Exalted It is obligatory that we exhort one another to the food of the poor, and among that is this charitable cooperation. But it will not be charitable except by linking this project to the Shari'ah rulings and by having it carried out by people other than students of knowledge.
Abu Malik : Our Shaykh, you asked a question and said, why are these funds not placed in special safes in the banks and their fees paid? First, the banks do not agree to such a transaction. I say the banks allow these funds or valuable items to be placed in these rented safes, because the matter does not require the association, institution, merchant, or company to open this safe daily and deal with it in what is called a current account, meaning a current debtor account. This account does not allow such a thing, because the bank is not prepared every day to open the safe and deposit in it. Perhaps the deposit requires the employee to pass by the bank two or three times a day. And therefore, they do not allow such a thing. They tell him, take out your money. Is this not correct? Brother Rami, by virtue of his specialization, knows this. This can actually be realized if the money is placed for savings only. But if it is placed for daily transactions, this is not possible. And therefore, even this condition is not realized for such associations and institutions.

The Shaykh : It seems to me something regarding this explanation, and may Allah reward you with good, if you permit... I do not know such detail as I heard just now, and I assume the reality is so, after we derive from the one described as being of his specialization, yes. But it seems to me, assuming the matter is with this restriction that we heard just now, that a solution to the problem from the practical side may be that the association has millions, so the association can deposit these millions in the safe called the safe of trusts, and keep in its own safe what it needs to conduct its affairs in a period of one, two, or three months. I am not an expert in these associations; I only work my mind and intellect. And by that, we escape from this restriction, which is a legal matter, unfortunately, if it is so. With this solution, the association keeps in its own safe from the thousands what it uses for its special expenses and its needs, until perhaps after one or two months, the interest-based bank allows it to request to open the safe to take such a quantity. This is what seems to me mentally and intellectually now. We benefit from the professor here.

The questioner : By Allah, O Shaykh, even this is difficult, and I expect that even the association cannot reconcile with this matter, because the association always has large projects and donations, and therefore it needs funds with very high movement. And therefore, the banks always provide these associations with many benefits that they do not provide to other customers. This is from the second aspect.

The Shaykh : Excuse me, I said at the end, so what?

The questioner : Therefore, banks usually provide these cooperative associations with very significant benefits.

The Shaykh : What are these benefits?

The questioner : Among these benefits, for example, is that they grant them freedom of withdrawal and deposit through specific methods. These are banking procedures that are difficult to explain now, but they try to attract these associations by every possible means.
Abu Malik: Through inducements, I suppose.

The questioner : Through inducements, meaning very large inducements. Also, a reference to what our professor and Shaykh, Abu Malik, pointed out, which is an important point regarding the donors. Generally, cooperative associations have an account in every branch. For example, if a person is in Aqaba, Jordan, and another is in Irbid, and the association's headquarters is in Amman, how can they reach it? Let us suppose there are two or three thousand people in Aqaba, or more, and ten thousand in Irbid. He can, through the bank branch there in Aqaba, simply send a paper—even if he sends it with any person—to transfer from his account to the association's fund account. Of course, this is a great facilitation for people, and consequently, the association receives large sums of money. In practice, this is the problem now; as our Shaykh and professor informed us, these banks have become like an octopus; you cannot get rid of them.
Abu Malik: Another thing, my brother Rami, is that it is forbidden for associations to keep in their safe anything but a small, specified amount. It is not permissible for them to keep thousands; rather, they keep, if they keep anything, hundreds. They must not exceed the figure of thousands; they do not enter into that. Therefore, from a practical standpoint, it is impossible to implement this if we stop at this. However, we know, as we have discussed the topic at some length, that associations lead their members or shareholders into labyrinths of enmity, hatred, jealousy, and discord. The nature of associations, and I know several of them, is that competition between them leads to hostility, even among those of the same methodology. I recall that two Islamic associations here, one of which was established and active, had another association established that incited against the first, saying that the first association did not achieve the benefit and did not strive for the things that I achieve in my association. Consequently, the first association died and the second was dissolved at the expense of the first, and they were all of the same methodology.

The questioner : There is a technical addition, of course, to be informed. Now, what prevails among committed people, if they are forced to deal with these banks, is that they open a current account. Of course, the definition of a current account in Islamic banks is that it is a current benevolent loan.

The Shaykh : How?

The questioner : Its definition in Islamic banks is that this account is called a current account, which is accompanied by a checkbook. Its status is that it is a current benevolent loan, meaning that at any time you request this amount, even if it is in the hundreds of millions, it is paid to you at any time.
Abu Malik: Naming it by other than its name.

The Shaykh : Meaning, they name it by other than its name.

The questioner : This is their legal classification regarding it.
Abu Malik: Their legal classification, not the Sharia classification.

The questioner : They, of course, call it a Sharia classification because they named it a current benevolent loan, as they do not give any interest or any profits on it. At any time you request the amount, it is given to you or paid to you. For example, if you deposited it today and requested it, it is paid to you in full. But the rest of the accounts, such as a savings account or a deposit account, you must keep a certain amount in the account and it is not permissible to withdraw it before a specified period. Consequently, most of these people... but of course, at the same time, if you look at it, this is the most profitable account for the bank because it is not committed to paying you anything. It can utilize this money within two days and earn a great deal from it.

The Shaykh : Now, Abu Anas, what do you have?
Musa Nasr: Now, the employee who is forced, for example, the government transfers his salary to the bank. He cannot take it from the government or the department, but they transfer it to the Housing Bank or the Arab Bank. And sometimes, due to circumstances, it is delayed and the opportunity is not available to him, so it remains for days and weeks. What is its ruling, our Shaykh?

The Shaykh : This is one of the models and examples I referred to when I said, in response to the brother's words here, that they are not all the same. But regarding your final statement that the receipt of this salary may be delayed for a period, I see that for every employee afflicted with this affliction, who transfers his salary to the bank, he should make it his constant habit, always and forever, that when he knows the salary has reached the bank, he does not leave it for an hour of the day if he is able to do so. Because Allah the Exalted does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. First, to clarify the difference: he is not like the one who deposits his money in the bank by his own hand. Rather, this is imposed on him by force, like these taxes from which no one escapes. They are levies and forbidden, and so on, but they are imposed on us by force, so we are not responsible. And like the bribe that the briber pays to reach his suppressed right; this is not a forbidden bribe, as you know. So I say that this employee, first, is not responsible because the state ordered him to take the salary from the bank. But he must strive, as I said earlier, not to leave this money for less than the shortest possible time. He must strive not to leave it, no matter how little. But if he is forced by illness, may Allah forbid, or something similar, Allah does not burden a soul except with what it can bear. Please.

The questioner : ... its disclosure after his work. It is permissible to ask our brother; perhaps this person's salary is simple, but banks, of course, out of their wickedness, sometimes seize the salary amount. Let us suppose, for example, the Ministry of Finance or the Ministry of Agriculture seizes, let us suppose, hundreds of millions. They received the amount from the government but delay it with them to utilize it. And every time the employee inquires, they say, "It has not yet arrived from the ministry." He goes to the ministry, and they tell him, "It has gone." Of course, during the four or five days, they have utilized this money. But there is no power and no strength except with Allah.

The Shaykh : In any case, this has no relation to the employee. This is one of their tricks, "a straw on a camel's back," as they say. Meaning, on top of their dealing in riba, they delay this money with them, and they have no right to do so.

The questioner : May Allah bless you. Now we have finished the issue of associations, but is there a connection between organized collective work and associations?

The Shaykh : The answer has preceded. If they are working in the Islamic department and do not oppose one another and do not hold grudges against one another, I do not see a barrier in that. But this, in reality, is very rare.

The questioner : Because, may Allah bless you, it is not befitting for anyone to make the foundation of his da'wah or his gathering an association or such. The foundation must be the methodology of the people of the Sunnah and the community. But if he makes his foundation...

The Shaykh : Halimah returned to her old habit.

The questioner : But if he makes the foundation of his da'wah, for example, an association, then a type of partisanship may occur afterwards. If he makes the methodology of the people of the Sunnah and the community, as understood by the Salaf, the original principle, it does not necessitate that, for example... this partisanship, and Allah knows best.

The Shaykh : But remember that I insist that students of knowledge stay away.