Abu Malik’s intervention in the answer to the questioner and his discussion with him regarding the issue of what is the fruit of declaring a Muslim who says "La ilaha illa Allah" a disbeliever if something occurs from him for which he is judged to be a disbeliever in appearance.

Abu Malik: Our Shaykh, I want to, perhaps I will summarize or shorten the path for Sami.

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.
Abu Malik: I apologize, our Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Please, my brother.
Abu Malik: I say that first, if we asked a question that is clear to people, we would find the answer to it among all people, and then we would separate the negative answer from the positive answer and see the proportion between the two. The question is: What is the fruit of declaring a Muslim who says "La ilaha illa Allah" a disbeliever if something appears from him for which he is judged to be a disbeliever in appearance? In my opinion, this answer requires this question to be understood with precision in the response. As for me, the answer in my view is that the benefit or fruit that follows from the answer must be something the person is convinced of first. If I say the fruit is that I judge him to be a disbeliever, then I have judged him to be a disbeliever and that is enough. What is there after judging him to be a disbeliever? Nothing, especially in our time when we are in most need of clarifying to people the path of truth that they should follow so that we can take them out of the circle of disbelief into the circle of faith. But if we say that the answer expected from others is that the fruit following from this question and answer is that we must kill this one whose disbelief is established for us by our question and answer, I think that the second part or the second answer would be something of nonsense in our time. Therefore, the view must be unified in judging this person. What is the ruling, or why do we declare him a disbeliever? We must be cautious before we answer. We say: If disbelief or declaring someone a disbeliever has a practical fruit in terms of disciplining society, then we can say so. But do you not know that declaring people disbelievers increases their disbelief and their exit from Islam? Therefore, the view and the judgment regarding these people must be corrected, that they are sick and that we must take them out of darkness into light. If you say "the rulers," the group of rulers is a small group. And I was speaking recently in a public gathering and mentioned that the state of compulsion I referred to is not limited to the state of one individual, but the entire nation is now under compulsion. The entire nation is now in the cauldron of compulsion. Who is able to say, if the enemies of Islam say to the nation, "We want you to do such and such," who has the power to say "No" now? Knowing that you can say that in your home or between you and other people with whom you have friendship or affection, but you cannot declare that to the people. This is proof that you are compelled to do the thing or to accept the thing that you do not believe in first. And there is another thing that I cannot help but draw attention to, which is that now I am asking a question: What is expected for this person who is judged to be a disbeliever? I have judged him to be a disbeliever in belief. Where is his destination? Eternal abode in the Fire, is that not so? Well, you said, Sami, that practical disbelief is of two types: one type for which he is judged to be a disbeliever by apostasy or by belief, and the other type is not. So I want to choose whichever you wish and give me an example first, or define for me whom you believe has committed practical disbelief that constitutes disbelief in belief. Define it for me so I can see.

The Shaykh : ... .
Abu Malik: Yes, exactly.

The questioner : We gave an example that merely replacing the religion of Allah the Exalted with man-made laws is major shirk, and this is an act of judging by other than what Allah has revealed. Merely replacing the religion of Allah, this is disbelief, major disbelief, which takes one out of the religion.
Abu Malik: Notice what you said. You said "replaced."

The questioner : ... This is our reality now, that now they have replaced the Shari'ah of Allah with man-made laws, or they have judged by other than what Allah has revealed. Call it what you will, so this is an act, so we judge that he has exited the religion. For his statement, meaning as Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allah have mercy on him) said in his book *The Prayer and the Ruling on the One Who Abandons It*, he said: "Just as there are branches of faith that are verbal, the loss of which causes the loss of faith, so too are the practical branches, and so too are the branches of disbelief, both verbal and practical."
Abu Malik: ... These matters, now I am asking you. Well, this one who replaced the religion of Allah with the system of disbelief, or replaced the system of disbelief with the religion of Allah. The correct phrase now, I am asking you: Who agrees with him in appearance, what do you say about him?

The questioner : If he is satisfied, if...
Abu Malik: Do not tell me "if he is satisfied."

The questioner : He agrees. How does he agree with him?
Abu Malik: He is now a man who judges by other than what Allah has revealed.

The questioner : Yes.
Abu Malik: He replaced the religion of Allah with the system of disbelief, or the system of Allah with the system of disbelief, is that not so?

The questioner : Yes.
Abu Malik: Who agrees with him in appearance, what do you say about him?

The questioner : If he is not compelled, it is disbelief.
Abu Malik: Huh?

The questioner : If he is not compelled, it is disbelief.
Abu Malik: Not compelled?

The questioner : Disbelief, if he agrees with him.
Abu Malik: Well, how do you judge that he is not compelled?

The questioner : His situation.
Abu Malik: ... Now you are investigating the nation from its lowest to its highest. How can you determine this? I want us to reach together who is judged to be a disbeliever, or who is a supporter by compulsion or without compulsion. How do you judge that?

The questioner : I do not say that if the peoples now are satisfied with the systems of disbelief that are prevalent, then they have committed disbelief, regardless of whether, if Allah wills...
Abu Malik: ... You answer me with a specific answer now. This group that is present here currently, can you determine the one who is compelled from the one who is not compelled?

The questioner : No, the original state for us is that they are now Muslim. The original state for us is that they are Muslims.
Abu Malik: ... My brother, I am telling you, can you take out for me from these, from these people sitting here, the one who is compelled from the one who is not compelled?

The questioner : I cannot.
Abu Malik: You cannot, then may Allah bless you. It appears that they are judged to have been satisfied with following this system and accepted it, as proof that you are studying at the university and do not object to studying at the university, knowing that the university system is a disbeliever system, and it is a tyrannical system, and you are satisfied with studying at the university, and you are satisfied with the university systems, and you are satisfied with the mixing of men and women in the university, and you are satisfied with the shaving of beards, whose appearance indicates that they deny the system of Allah. Why do you do this, you?

The questioner : I do not do it.
Abu Malik: Then the first one to be judged is you.

The questioner : I am not satisfied... I am not satisfied with the man-made systems.
Abu Malik: Glory be to Allah, I am telling you, you are satisfied.

The questioner : I am not satisfied.
Abu Malik: How are you not satisfied, then why do you study at the university?

The questioner : I am now in a situation that is not...

The Shaykh : ... Satisfaction, is it in the heart or in the action?

The questioner : There is satisfaction in the heart and in the action.

The Shaykh : He is accusing you now.

The questioner : I am not satisfied with that. I am now going to the university regardless.

The Shaykh : O Shaykh, you are now dividing satisfaction into two parts.

The questioner : I am not speaking...

The Shaykh : My heart.

The questioner : I am not speaking... I stop speaking, I stop speaking. Answer other questions.
Abu Malik: Why?

The questioner : No, that is enough.
Abu Malik: Why?

The questioner : ... Like this.
Abu Malik: You must answer.

The questioner : ... My brother, I will not answer.
Abu Malik: What is this, my brother Sami? I have not known you to run away.

The questioner : No, I am not speaking.
Abu Malik: I have not known you to be a runner, Sami.

The questioner : The one who has speech speaks. I do not...
Abu Malik: No, I want you to answer, you. Answer, may Allah bless you.

The questioner : I told you, I am not satisfied with the matter... Belief...
Abu Malik: Then my brother, may Allah bless you, how do I see or how do I judge that you are not satisfied, while I see you every day going to the university?

The questioner : Any, any Muslim who is satisfied with the systems now, who has correct belief?
Abu Malik: My brother Sami, leave me with these general, vague answers. I am asking you, you. Are you now a disbeliever or not a disbeliever?

The questioner : No, I am not a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Why? No, you are a disbeliever. You judge yourself to be a disbeliever.

The questioner : No, I do not judge myself to be a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Glory be to Allah, you...

The Shaykh : Basically, he made satisfaction practical...
Abu Malik: ... My practice is based on the apparent meaning. May Allah bless you. Sami, I am telling you something: this idea that has taken hold of you, or is taking hold of you, is not what I thought you had, but it has now become apparent. I praise Allah that it has become apparent to me directly, rather than being reported to me through the tongues of others, for I would not have believed it. This is for two reasons. The first reason is that I know you have not yet fully adopted the idea of declaring people disbelievers or believers, or judging people by faith and disbelief, because you are now refusing to delve into this issue; you have stopped. The second reason is that I see that your reality contradicts your logic and your words. Finally, Sami, I want to tell you that judging a person as a disbeliever, as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, necessitates one of two things: either the one making the judgment is the disbeliever, or the one being judged is the disbeliever. So, one of the two is in error. Therefore, may Allah bless you; what saves you from this is to say, "So-and-so said this, and so-and-so said that." Even if 'Umar al-Ashqar, Ibn Taymiyyah, Sayyid Qutb, Ibn Kathir, and al-Tabari, or all the scholars of the world, said this word without evidence, it would not suffice. You cited a verse from the Book of Allah but you did not complete it: This is regarding the hypocrites. May Allah bless you; it is not regarding a single Muslim who says, "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah." I also want to refer you to what is in Sahih al-Bukhari, and I ask you before I refer you to it, and I apologize to our Shaykh. I am asking you now: you say, "There is no god but Allah," right? You say, "There is no god but Allah," and you live in a society like the one we live in, a society that practices disbelief, and its ruling is the ruling of an unjust disbeliever. You live with "There is no god but Allah" alone; you do not pray, you do not fast, you do not pay zakah, and you do not perform Hajj. But you sincerely believe in "There is no god but Allah." Are you a disbeliever or a believer?

The questioner : A disbeliever. If you abandon the type of action, you are a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Glory be to Allah. Well, how do you judge yourself to be a disbeliever?

The questioner: Because
Abu Malik: And you say, "There is no god but Allah," sincerely with your heart, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) says or he said . How do you judge that?

The questioner : Because I did not bring ... .
Abu Malik: No, no, answer me according to my question. How do you judge it when you say it sincerely, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) says it is sincere, and he did not condition it on action, as evidenced by the Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) hadith of intercession ? He did no good at all; he did not pray, fast, pay zakah, or perform Hajj, but he said, "There is no god but Allah." What do you say about this? And the disbeliever abides in the Fire by your judgment, whether it is practical disbelief that leads to bad belief, or it is belief-based disbelief. What do you say?

The questioner : This is the one ...
Abu Malik: Do you ...? Answer me.

The questioner : What is it? I am not going to answer you. You are trying to corner me now. I have detailed matters. Now, we must combine the texts that came regarding this issue. I do not take the texts that the people of the Murji'ah took and make them a rule ... .
Abu Malik: Well, allow me, allow me to understand what you mean by the Murji'ah.

The questioner : They are the ones who said that faith ...
Abu Malik: Yes.

The questioner : ... is the affirmation.
Abu Malik: The affirmation.

The questioner : ... mere affirmation.
Abu Malik: Yes.

The questioner : And they said that it remains as faith even if he does not bring any action.
Abu Malik: Yes.

The questioner : And some of them exaggerated, and they are the Jahmiyyah, who said it is the conviction.
Abu Malik: Yes, they said what?

The questioner : It is the conviction.
Abu Malik: Yes.

The questioner : So they are two groups. One group said it is the affirmation, so even if he affirms "There is no god but Allah" and does not bring any action, they said his faith remains and he will come out of Hell. And some of them exaggerated, the Jahmiyyah, who said faith ... .
Abu Malik: I am asking you now: whom do I believe, you or the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)?

The questioner : Without doubt, the Messenger of Allah.
Abu Malik: Huh?

The questioner : Without doubt or doubt.
Abu Malik: No, you are lying to the Messenger of Allah.

The questioner : I am not lying to the Messenger of Allah.
Abu Malik: Because the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) is a Murji'i.

The questioner : I seek refuge in Allah.
Abu Malik: The Messenger is a Murji'i.

The questioner : I seek refuge in Allah
Abu Malik: No, he is a Murji'i, my brother. A Murji'i. Do not tell me, I seek refuge in Allah, that you are judging him as a Murji'i.

The questioner : Our Shaykh, we learned from you ...
Abu Malik: Defend this, Sami. Bring me two contradictory texts that contradict each other, one contradicting the saying of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) . Bring me a text that contradicts it.

The questioner : I said I did not want to speak in the first place, but you wanted me to speak now.
Abu Malik: I wanted to speak?

The questioner : You wanted to speak to me. I am telling you, Shaykh, as we learned from you, that we must combine the texts.
Abu Malik: Well, bring me ...

The questioner : And there are texts ...
Abu Malik: I told you, bring me a text.

The questioner : Well, now, His saying, Exalted is He, . So Allah, Mighty and Majestic, clarified the wisdom of the sending of the messengers, which is obedience. So if I do not obey the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him), I have broken the wisdom for which Allah sent me.
Abu Malik: Well, I am now answering your question. If this is your objection, , is the obedience of the servants equal or varying?

The questioner : Varying, without doubt.
Abu Malik: Huh?

The questioner : Varying, without doubt.
Abu Malik: Well, the one who says "There is no god but Allah," did he obey the Messenger or did he not obey the Messenger? And it is the foundation of belief.

The questioner : Did he suffice with it?
Abu Malik: I am asking you: did he suffice with it or did he not suffice with it?

The questioner : He did not suffice with it.
Abu Malik: Did he not obey?

The questioner : No, let us distinguish.
Abu Malik: My dear Sami, I am asking you, so answer me according to my question. The one who says "There is no god but Allah" sincerely with his heart ...

The questioner : K ... .
Abu Malik: Did he obey Allah and His Messenger or did he not obey?

The questioner : As a beginning, he obeyed. As a beginning, he obeyed.
Abu Malik: What do you mean "as a beginning"? Is there a beginning and an end, my brother?

The questioner : He entered Islam now, but the description of Islam does not remain for him until ... .
Abu Malik: Well, I am asking you a question now. Here, a man was a Christian or a Jew, and he said "There is no god but Allah," then he stood up and performed ghusl, and the time for the midday prayer had come, but he did not pray, and he died upon "There is no god but Allah." Did he enter Paradise or did he not enter Paradise?

The questioner : He entered Paradise.
Abu Malik: Why?

The questioner : He is a new convert to Islam.
Abu Malik: Huh?

The questioner : He is a new convert to Islam.
Abu Malik: Where is this "new convert to Islam" from?

The questioner : From the hadiths that were reported.
Abu Malik: From which?

The questioner : The one who came to the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and said to him, "Should I fight or should I submit?" He said to him . So this one died and did not pray.
Abu Malik: Well.

The questioner : So this is a new convert to Islam.
Abu Malik: Well, this man died with his full work, Professor. So if two or three came, one who died just now, and one who waited and did not pray Maghrib or 'Isha' and died, he is not held accountable for abandoning the prayer, but is he not rewarded for "There is no god but Allah"?

The questioner : We said he is rewarded because this is the only action required of him now.
Abu Malik: No, I am telling you, is the second one rewarded for "There is no god but Allah" or not?

The questioner : There is a disagreement regarding abandoning the prayer now. We come to abandoning the prayer ... what is the ruling ... .
Abu Malik: No, I am not assuming abandoning the prayer, or any of the actions.

The questioner : If he says "There is no god but Allah" and then does not bring any action, this is disbelief, I seek refuge in Allah. Abandoning action entirely is disbelief.
Abu Malik: Your argument is wrong, and ... I asked you a question. I said . This one who said "There is no god but Allah," and remained sincere with his heart, do you not say that he obeyed Allah?

The questioner : No, he did not obey Allah.
Abu Malik: He did not obey Allah?

The questioner : No, he did not obey.
Abu Malik: Well, what is the sign of his entering Islam?

The questioner : This is the difference between the Murji'ah and the people of the Sunnah.
Abu Malik: My brother ... if Muhammad becomes a Murji'i, you have ...

The questioner : No, I am not saying that Muhammad is a Murji'i, I seek refuge in Allah. You, our Shaykh, took some texts, and we take all the texts.
Abu Malik: My brother, I have no texts here. I told you, bring me a text. You brought me a truncated text. When I said One person said, "There is no god but Allah," and did not pray. One person said, "There is no god but Allah," and prayed. One person said, "There is no god but Allah," and did not pray, but he purified this one who did not pray and said, "There is no god but Allah." Do you say he obeyed Allah or not?

The questioner : There is a difference of opinion regarding the abandonment of prayer. We say...
Abu Malik: Oh, glory to Allah!

The questioner : Because this issue...
Abu Malik: Sami

The questioner : In ... .
Abu Malik: Sami

The questioner : Is the one who abandons prayer a disbeliever?
Abu Malik: I mean, I want to say: he abandoned three of the four pillars of Islam, other than the two testimonies, and he practiced one pillar. Did he obey Allah or not?

The questioner : Repeat the question.
Abu Malik: One person said, "There is no god but Allah." Two, one person said, "There is no god but Allah," and practiced all the pillars of Islam. And one person said, "There is no god but Allah," and did not practice the pillars of Islam, but practiced one pillar. Did he obey Allah or not?

The questioner : We look at whether his abandonment of these actions necessitates disbelief. If it necessitates disbelief, we declare him a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Abandoning fasting. Abandoning fasting. He did not fast.

The questioner : He did not abandon the type of action. He abandoned what now...
Abu Malik: Abandoning fasting.

The questioner : The stronger view, as far as we know, is that we do not say the one who abandons fasting is a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Okay, what about abandoning zakah?

The questioner : Likewise, as far as we know, he is not a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Abandoning Hajj?

The questioner : The one who abandons Hajj is likewise.
Abu Malik: Okay, what about abandoning prayer?

The questioner : We suspend judgment.
Abu Malik: Why?

The questioner : Because the issue is a matter of scholarly disagreement among the scholars.
Abu Malik: So he is not a disbeliever?

The questioner : We suspend judgment. He may be a disbeliever, or he may be a Muslim. We...
Abu Malik: No, I want to say: I want the stronger of the two opinions in your view. What is it?

The questioner : We suspend judgment. We do not rule on him. I do not know what the stronger view is in this issue right now.
Abu Malik: Fine. So, does each of these people obey Allah or not?

The questioner : He obeyed Allah the Exalted and Majestic by performing the actions.
Abu Malik: Tell me... in one word, answer me: did he obey Allah or not?

The questioner : He obeyed Allah by performing the actions.
Abu Malik: By performing which action?

The questioner : The actions that he performed.
Abu Malik: He performed one action.

The questioner : And he did not abandon the type of action, meaning...
Abu Malik: I want to say, okay, "There is no god but Allah." Did he do it or not?

The questioner : He did it, but it alone is not sufficient.
Abu Malik: Sami, where did you get this thinking from, Sami? This speech you are speaking is contradictory to the minds of all people of intellect. This speech you are taking is truncated and is of no use to you, Sami. It does not benefit you at all. You need a new arrangement in your reading. You contradict yourself in the same place three or four times.

The questioner : How?
Abu Malik: Now you are contradicting yourself. Once you say yes, because he did not abandon the type of action. My brother, I am telling you he abandoned prayer, and you tell me we suspend judgment and do not declare him a disbeliever. Okay, I want to say, with your suspension of judgment...

The questioner : We do not declare him a disbeliever, and we do not call him a Muslim.
Abu Malik: My brother, listen, what?

The questioner : We do not declare him a disbeliever, and we do not call him a Muslim.
Abu Malik: And what do you call him?

The questioner : We are suspending judgment on him now. This is his ruling. I suspend judgment on him because...
Abu Malik: He said, "There is no god but Allah," and you suspend judgment on his ruling. You do not call him a disbeliever, and you do not call him a Muslim. So what is he?

The questioner : ... We are not the Mu'tazilah.
Abu Malik: So tell me, what is he?

The questioner : Now, the one who abandons the type of action is a disbeliever in our view. We need to clarify this: the one who abandons the type of action, or abandons the action entirely, is a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Oh, Sami, my brother.

The questioner : Regarding the one who abandons prayer, we suspend judgment. Other than prayer, now we look: he prayed and abandoned zakah. He is not a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: This is a contradiction. This is...

The questioner : No, it is not a contradiction.
Abu Malik: ... I want to say about him, I, a disbeliever. What do you think?

The questioner : You have your independent legal reasoning.
Abu Malik: Huh?

The questioner : You have your independent legal reasoning.
Abu Malik: So who rules on him regarding disbelief and non-disbelief?

The questioner : I mean, the texts of the Shari'ah, the Book and the Sunnah...
Abu Malik: We disagreed on the texts of the Shari'ah.

The questioner : ... .
Abu Malik: We disagreed completely.

The questioner : We return to...
Abu Malik: So, Sami, when people disagree on ruling that a person is a disbeliever or not a disbeliever, does that mean... what do we prefer to save ourselves and save this one whose ruling we disagreed on? How do we prefer? What do you think: do we rule on him as a disbeliever so that one of us is saved from his disbelief or from disbelief? Or do we not rule on him as a disbeliever, and that is safer? What do you see?

The questioner : If his action is disbelief, we declare him a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Prayer. I am talking about prayer now.

The questioner : Regarding prayer, I say he is neither a disbeliever nor a Muslim. Allah knows his state best, until we know the stronger view in the issue: is he a disbeliever or a Muslim?
Abu Malik: When do you want to know the stronger view? On the Day of Resurrection?

The questioner : No, it is not...
Abu Malik: Huh? When, if Allah wills?

The questioner : ... I mean, we research and read...
Abu Malik: Or before the death rattle? Now, Sami, you need Allah to be pleased with you. You need to reconsider everything you have read. By the great Allah, I am asking you a final question now. You say, "I go to the university," and I gave you an example of the university, which is the closest, meaning the loudest in examples, screaming at you to rule on you that you are committing a wrong in speech and falsehood, and that you are pleased with the system of disbelief which you say is a disbeliever's system. You did not answer and said you are not pleased with the university. Why do you go to the university?

The questioner : I am not pleased with going to the university.
Abu Malik: So why do you go, my brother?

The questioner : I have circumstances, so I go to the university, but I am not pleased...
Abu Malik: Okay, when I see you going to the university, and I am ruling based on the apparent over the apparent, I want to rule on you as a disbeliever because you are pleased with the taghut. What do you think?

The questioner : Who said that I am pleased with it?
Abu Malik: I am only ruling on you based on the apparent. I ruled on you as a disbeliever.

The questioner : No, this is not... I am not pleased, and it is not... and this is... we do not declare him a disbeliever. No, we do not declare him a disbeliever.
Abu Malik: Why?

The questioner : No, because he is not pleased. As for the person, I am now pleased with the worship of idols. Let us leave the matter of legal systems for now. I am a person pleased with what? With the rulings? With the worship of idols? Am I a disbeliever or not a disbeliever?
Abu Malik: I don't know.

The questioner : I am pleased. I am pleased. The apparent of my speech is that I go to them. I do not rebuke them. I associate with them. I do such and such with them. Perhaps I do their action. Am I a disbeliever or not a disbeliever? Let us leave this issue for now. Our disagreement with the youth who... the disagreement between us and them is not the issue of the rulers. We are not looking into the rulers now. The issue is the type of action. Now, my pleasure with disbelief: is it disbelief or not disbelief? Let us leave the current situation. In the current situation, there is no person...
Abu Malik: What tells me that you are pleased or not pleased?

The questioner : It does not matter to them. I, on the day... I do not say that I am not pleased...
Abu Malik: What is your status, meaning?

The questioner : I am a transgressor.
Abu Malik: Our Shaykh, may Allah prolong his life, said that there are two things that indicate the tongue of speech and the tongue of reality. As for the tongue of speech, the speech is definitive, and it is certain that he is ruled as a disbeliever because he said it with his tongue. But the tongue of reality is what can be interpreted, so it can be said that he is a disbeliever or not a disbeliever. Therefore, we cannot [rule] by the tongue of reality because it accepts interpretation. And you are now speaking by interpretation, you yourself. Therefore, I do not want to rule on you as a disbeliever, but you rule on yourself as a disbeliever.

The Shaykh : I mean, by his tongue of reality.
Abu Malik: Yes, by his tongue of reality.

The Shaykh : Especially interpreting pleasure.
Abu Malik: Yes, exactly.

The Shaykh : With the heart and with the action.
Abu Malik: With the action.

The questioner : Our Shaykh, I...

The Shaykh : He is pleased in action.

The questioner : ... We return to the verse and Coercion here does not occur except on the apparent, except on the action. Only one who is coerced. A person is not coerced into a belief or into...
Abu Malik: How is he not coerced? Who was this verse revealed about?

The questioner : The verse was revealed...
Abu Malik: About whom was the verse revealed?

The questioner : 'Ammar ibn Yasir.
Abu Malik: What did 'Ammar say?

The questioner : What did he say?
Abu Malik: He said the word of disbelief.

The questioner : He said the word of disbelief.
Abu Malik: You are saying about him the action.

The questioner : We, we are not by the cause; you mentioned the occasion of revelation.
Abu Malik: There is no god but Allah.

The questioner : It is this verse.
Abu Malik: My dear, may Allah be pleased with you, go read... read the occasion of revelation and then come back and we will talk.

The questioner : Our Shaykh, regarding the issue, as the Shaykh al-Islam said about this verse, he said, "Whoever disbelieves after his faith has opened his breast to disbelief."
Abu Malik: This, O Shaykh, is the statement of the Imam...

The questioner : Whoever disbelieves after his faith has opened his breast to disbelief.

The questioner : ... .

The questioner : Coercion does not apply to creed. I am coerced in my actions; I am coerced to prostrate to an idol, I am coerced to wear a cross, I am coerced in what? In the action. But as for the creed, I am not coerced; no one is coerced in creed.
Abu Malik: Very clear, meaning.

The questioner : It is clear, but everyone who disbelieves, because he has opened his breast to disbelief, this is the interpretation. And therefore the Shaykh al-Islam said, "And this verse is evidence for the invalidity of the statement of Jahm and those who followed him that whoever speaks the words of disbelief, the threat of the people of disbelief applies to him or falls upon him."