Meeting with Prince Abu 'Abd al-'Aziz, the leader of the Arabs in Bosnia, with Shaykh al-Albani, and his clarification to the Shaykh of the situation there in Bosnia in 1413 AH.

The Shaykh : How are you?

The questioner : We praise Allah and give thanks to Him, O our noble Shaykh, meaning...

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik: ...meaning, and he was among the brothers who had experience in the affairs of jihad, especially withThe Shaykh : Jamil al-Rahman (may Allah have mercy on him).

The Shaykh : (May Allah have mercy on him).
Abu Malik: And he stayed with him; I think he remained until he passed away, is that not so?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik: And how many months has the brother been there now? Six months?

The questioner : Six months.
Abu Malik: Six months in Bosnia.

The Shaykh: Yes
Abu Malik: And he is the commander of the Arab mujahideen there.

The Shaykh: Yes
Abu Malik: And the truth is, he heard about some issues related to some of the questions you were asked, and he was informed of some of what was said regarding the topic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially the brothers who were there and came as visitors. So he wanted to, meaning, he came specifically from there to listen, to present the topic to you in its entirety.

The Shaykh : Very well.
Abu Malik: And he raises, or presents, some questions related to the current situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik: And he said, "I wanted to take from..."The Shaykh : ...so that we may clarify the truth, if Allah wills.

The Shaykh: Yes
Abu Malik: And if there is any error, we will correct it, or if there is any truth, we will affirm it.

The Shaykh : Well done.
Abu Malik: And if it is neither this nor that, we will see where we stand regarding error and truth.

The Shaykh : May Allah bless you. First, O Shaykh, what is your kunya? Abu what?

The questioner : Abu 'Abd al-'Aziz.

The Shaykh : Abu 'Abd al-'Aziz.

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : And you are known by your son?

The questioner : Yes, my eldest son.

The Shaykh : Is he the eldest?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : 'Abd al-'Aziz?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : How old is he?

The questioner : He is approximately twenty years old now.

The Shaykh : What Allah willed, and if Allah wills, is he with you on the Salafi line?

The questioner : We praise Allah, the Exalted, yes. And he is now in Pakistan; he is still, meaning, he was fighting in Afghanistan.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : And he is still there.

The Shaykh : We ask for success for you and for him. Please, what do you have?

The questioner : Praise is to Allah; we praise Him, seek His help, seek His forgiveness, and repent to Him. We seek refuge in Allah from the evil of our own souls and from the badness of our deeds. Whom Allah guides, there is no one who can mislead him, and whom He misleads, there is no one who can guide him. And I bear witness that there is no god but Allah alone, with no partner. His is the dominion and His is the praise. He gives life and causes death. In His hand is all good, and He is over all things competent. And I bear witness that Muhammad is the servant of Allah and His Messenger. He conveyed the message, fulfilled the trust, advised the nation, and struggled in the cause of Allah with true struggle. As for what follows, this blessed day is the night of Monday, the twelfth of Jumada al-Akhirah, 1413 AH, corresponding to the fifth of December, 1992 CE. We praise Allah, the Exalted, for guiding me to come to this place to meet our noble Shaykh,The Shaykh : Nasir al-Din al-Albani, to inquire from him about some of the news that reached me regarding his view on the fighting taking place within Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the extent of the participation of our brothers, whether they are Arabs or non-Arabs other than the Bosnians who are under my command, Abu 'Abd al-'Aziz, in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So I wanted to come to him and inquire about the validity of this fighting, or in other words, are we truly fighting in the cause of Allah? To exalt the word of Allah? And will our jihad in this place bear fruit for us on the day we meet Allah, the Exalted? The day we hope to be with the prophets and the truthful ones, beside our Lord. We ask Allah, the Exalted, for that, and our good opinion of our Lord is that He will gather us with them. And we ask Allah, the Exalted, to guide us and keep us firm on what we are upon, and Allah knows best. And we begin with our Shaykh with this question: When the conditions and wars began in the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, we went there and began the jihad. If Allah wills, I will come to you with the details. But in the last few days, approximately fifteen days ago, I learned that there is a tape where one of the brothers, whose name or kunya is Abu Ghassan, came to you and sought your fatwa on military jihad, the fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the extent to which it aligns with jihad in the cause of Allah, and so on. So these were some of the things mentioned by the brothers who came to fight but did not bring the tape with them so that I could listen to it and know the words that were mentioned, so that I could be aware. So I came here after passing through several secret routes to meet you. And yesterday I took the tape from one of the brothers here, listened to it, and noted some of the points mentioned and some of your opinion or fatwa on this topic, the topic of jihad, the fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the role that we must play, the role that we must apply there in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Among these, Abu Ghassan, as far as I know, Ghassan? Ghassan, as far as I know from the tape, so our brother Ghassan, as I recall, came four months ago as a representative of the Haramayn Foundation in the field of da'wah within Bosnia and Herzegovina. Praise be to Allah and thanks be to Him that the Haramayn Foundation actually carried out and continues to carry out the affairs of da'wah there.

The Shaykh : Praise be to Allah.

The questioner : Praise be to Allah. He mentioned some things that are in the context of da'wah, but I am here not to explain the matters of da'wah, because I am specialized in the affairs of fighting and jihad in the cause of Allah, if Allah wills.

The Shaykh : If Allah wills.

The questioner : Among the things he mentioned is that there is an Arab front army called COT. This is a wrong name; it is not a front for the Arabs, but rather a front or army named TO. I will explain it, if Allah wills.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : Some of the things he mentioned is that they lack the legal text, and I do not know what he means by that. He also mentioned that there are Muslim forces numbering three hundred men, not more than three hundred men. And he mentioned among the things that were stated that the fighting there does not have some of the necessary things or obligations; the prayer is not established, and there are some munkars. Then I heard your voice, O Shaykh, and you mentioned that the blood will be shed in vain due to the presence of Christian states around the region, which is a drop in the ocean of disbelief and misguidance. This is a word I want to inquire about, if Allah wills. And you mentioned that the jihad there must be through da'wah, not through fighting. You also mentioned that the battle is not equal, and that it must be da'wah only, not weapons. These are some of the points that concern me and for which I came. So I would like to put forward some explanations or introductions to this topic.

The Shaykh: Yes

The questioner : As you know, Bosnia and Herzegovina was a colony of the Serbian communist state for forty or fifty years, and they prevented any religious activity during this period, except in the last period. They encouraged the youth, especially to grant them the freedom to engage in munkars, such as intoxicants and women, and so on. All of these things became rooted in the youth, especially, and few of the sheikhs, because the sheikhs were maintaining their performance of prayers in the mosques. But a very few, perhaps in some obligatory prayers, the number of worshippers behind the imam would not reach four to five people. Perhaps, as one of the imams of the mosques told me, he spent two years in one of the mosques in the villages, and the villages there may have a population of one thousand or two thousand. So he said that this village was Muslim, but he spent more than two years there and no one prayed in it except him alone.

The Shaykh : Allahu Akbar.

The questioner : Except for the Friday prayer; they would attend with some of the sheikhs. And among the things was that some of the mosques were closed and then opened as cafes or as novelty shops. I saw one of the mosques that still exists in the city of Travnik, an old mosque, and some writings in it are still in Arabic or Turkish. And this mosque was turned into a shop for women's clothing and novelties and other things. These years are sufficient to change, or everyone we find who is a young man aged forty or fifty years old was born in this difficult period. So all of this was among the issues that we faced. And it was, praise be to Allah and thanks be to Him, that we did not find a young man except that he was proud that he is Muslim. So he says, "I still say La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah," and that his father prays, or that our family is from the Muslims, and so on.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : However, at the beginning, we did not see from them any interest in performing the prayers. At the start of my journey, before the Hajj of last year, 1412, when we learned that the disbelievers among the Serbs were killing our Muslim brothers because they were Muslims, and not because they were Bosnians, I went with four others to investigate the situation, for I have experience, praise and thanks be to Allah, in Afghanistan. So, can we also strive in their path there? Can we defend the oppressed? We saw on television what many Muslims see: the displacement of women and children. We also saw that some bodies had been slaughtered; these were the bodies of Muslims, even though there were mass graves for Muslims who were buried either after being slaughtered or after a cross was placed on their chests and they were left until they died, meaning their chests were bleeding from the cross. Likewise, the women had their bellies cut open or were raped.

The Shaykh : Allahu Akbar.

The questioner : All these matters stirred in us the Islamic zeal that we must feel, praise be to Allah. So we went, and we truly found that this was a little of the truth we had seen on television.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : Then I entered and met several individuals or heads of some mosques, and I verified that it was indeed necessary to do something we young people could do. So I left those four brothers and returned to my country. Then I formed a group for myself; I gathered for myself some simple amounts of money so that we could buy some weapons for ourselves and go to the interior, the place of fighting. I would like to give you a simple idea about Bosnia in terms of its population. Of course, the majority of the population, 60%, are Muslims, and the remaining 40% are Christians. The Christians are divided into two groups: one group is called Serb, which is everyone who follows the Orthodox Christian religion, and the other group is also Christian but follows the Catholic religion. And everyone who follows the Catholic religion is called Croatian, even if he has no connection to the state of Croatia. Likewise, the Serb: everyone who follows the Orthodox religion is a Serb, even if he has no connection to the state of Serbia. So if it is said here, or if it is said in Bosnia and Herzegovina, that this person is Croatian or Serb, it does not mean that he is from the state of Serbia. So when we entered there, we found that there were two armies in the Bosnian government. The first army is called by the Latin letters Hbo. Most of them are Christians, with a few Muslims.

The Shaykh : These letters are a symbol, of course.

The questioner : Symbols for a phrase.

The Shaykh : What does it translate to?

The questioner : I do not know exactly.

The Shaykh : No problem.

The questioner : But this symbol has become known to be the Serbs, Croats, and a few Muslims, and they are supported most of all by the state of Croatia. But they are an army that says they are the army of Bosnia to defend Bosnia against Serbia. And also among these Christians are Serbs, and Muslims among them fight with them. The second army...

The Shaykh : Excuse me, let us stop here for a moment. Are these people really defending Bosnia and Herzegovina?

The questioner : We will come to that, if Allah wills, and explain how the army is formed, how it operates, and what it does.

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.

The questioner : Then we found there another army called, or their abbreviated letters are TO. Most of these are Muslims, with a few Christians. And these Christians are also composed of Serbs or Croats. So when we went there, we looked for other people with whom we could fight, and we found that some of the imams of the mosques who had graduated from Islamic universities, whether from the Gulf states or from other Arab countries like Egypt or Jordan, or from the Islamic University in the capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is now called Sarajevo, there was an Islamic university.

The Shaykh: Yes

The questioner : So these brothers found that they were in an unsuitable place, one that Allah the Exalted and Majestic was not pleased with, because these Muslims in the HBO army or the TO army do not hesitate to engage in

The Shaykh : evil deeds.

The questioner : Evil deeds such as drinking intoxicants, associating with women, and so on. Also, we did not see in them the observance of performing the five daily prayers and other matters of the Shari'ah. But we see in them the good that they listen to us, or that when they find someone like us, they welcome us and offer us the duty of hospitality, and they are also generous.

The Shaykh : So let us call this the third army for now.

The questioner : The army to which we went is called the Muslim Forces.

The Shaykh : That is it.

The questioner : When we went, this was not the third army, but a group or some people who wanted to fight a battle against the tyrants to defend Islam and the Muslims.

The Shaykh : Okay, are they recognized by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

The questioner : This has happened now.

The Shaykh : This has happened.

The questioner : And praise and thanks be to Allah. And now we mention to you the reasons for this. When we went, we joined these brothers, and there was, praise be to Allah, a great welcome from them, a good welcome, and they provided us with all the facilitations from their homes and their locations. And we began to support them and teach them about the obligatory performance, and also how to pray, because they were praying but they did not know how to pray or how to perform ritual purity and similar things. In addition to teaching the Qur'an, we began with them in two parallel lines: fighting with them against the Serbs, and calling and guiding within their ranks and among the residents who live with them. And it was, praise and thanks be to Allah, that within fifteen days, we found that the young men began to turn toward the mosques and pray the five daily prayers, until we found that in some mosques, four rows were filled with young men in the Fajr prayer. And this is a great good that we saw with our own eyes.

The Shaykh : No doubt, this is in any region?

The questioner : In a city called Travnik.

The Shaykh : How far is it from the capital?

The questioner : About fifty-seven kilometers.

The Shaykh : Did you enter the capital?

The questioner : We could not enter the capital because we carried out an operation with the Muslim Forces, and there was an army fully equipped with all weapons from the Serbs, with several lines, to the extent that we tried to storm it, and eight of the brothers, non-Bosnians, were killed, and two Bosnians in this battle. After this battle, the London BBC radio announced that there had been a battle, the largest battle since the fighting began between the Muslims and the Serbs, in an attempt to find a breach to reach the interior. And that the Arabs, and that the Arab mujahideen participated in this battle, and their number reached five thousand mujahideen, and the number of killed Arab mujahideen was twelve, and the number of Serbs was not counted. This is from the radio. But we were not that large in number, so that we were just a few, meaning

The Shaykh : hundreds.

The questioner : Just hundreds, we had not yet reached a thousand. And praise and thanks be to Allah, we had this success, even though we could not achieve our goal, which was to open a road to Sarajevo. So when we return to the topic

The Shaykh : ... in terms of knowing the reality, is the capital now considered besieged?

The questioner : It is still besieged by

The Shaykh : the Serbs.

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : And the United Nations is trying with all its might to deliver aid to the Muslims there inside Bosnia by air or by land by force.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : And it has succeeded, after agreements, as far as I know, that all the aid that comes to them is distributed equally, meaning half for the Serbs and half for the Muslims.

The Shaykh : The aggressing Serbs, right?

The questioner : The aggressors.

The Shaykh : The aggressors!

The questioner : Yes.
Abu Malik: So that they can enable them

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik: So that ... meaning they enter them

The questioner : The important thing is when we went there

The Shaykh : I asked this question because we understood from it that in Serbia they fight the Bosnian army...

The questioner : With the Muslims, yes, the Bosnians.

The Shaykh : So I, from the standpoint of, meaning, good opinion, asked this question, and otherwise for the enemies too.

The Shaykh : Allah is the Greatest, yes.

The questioner : Then we began the training, training the Bosnian youth of the Muslim Forces, and the number of the Muslim Forces reached nine battalions during our presence. So these nine battalions are headed by a man, an imam from the imams of...

The Shaykh : ... how many?

The questioner : Each battalion is between one hundred and one hundred and fifty, but the number of armed men was about fifty, one third, and the number of battalions reached about nine. So these battalion commanders gathered and united among themselves and appointed for themselves an emir, who is the noble brother Mahmoud Krali, and he is a graduate of the Islamic University in al-Madinah al-Munawwarah.

The Shaykh : Mahmoud what?

The questioner : Krali.

The Shaykh : Meaning from Bosnia.

The questioner : Yes, the Bosnians. Yes, all of these are Bosnians.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : The nine factions. Their commander is Mahmoud Karalic, a graduate of the Islamic University in the Holy City, Faculty of Hadith. He is a man we believe to be sound in his creed. He himself told me that these Bosnians say I am a Wahhabi and so on.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : But they do not find any hostility from the Bosnians. And we, praise and thanks be to Allah, have not found any aversion or hesitation in accepting what we say to them.

The Shaykh : I mean, unlike the reality in Afghanistan.

The questioner : Unlike the reality in Afghanistan. Yes.

The Shaykh: Okay

The questioner : In addition, when we went there, we made it one of our conditions that for all the brothers who come from outside Bosnia and join us in our group, they must not spread any kind of studies or create any confusion regarding whether someone came from such-and-such a party, or that such-and-such a party or group is wrong or right.

The Shaykh : Considering what happened in Afghanistan.

The questioner : Exactly. This, praise be to Allah, allowed me to unify our ranks in this place, and that all our actions, our research, and our discussions must be about how to fight against the Serbs.

The Shaykh : Good.

The questioner : And our standard by which we weigh our actions, our fatwas, and any matter is one thing: the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), according to the understanding of the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them).

The Shaykh : Amen.

The questioner : This was pleasing to everyone. No one could say, "No, I do not want the Book of Allah, or I do not want the Sunnah, or I do not want the understanding of the Companions." So the agreement, praise be to Allah, was complete, and the Bosnian brothers also accepted this.

The Shaykh : Praise be to Allah.

The questioner : And we began that in any action we undertake, we say, "Allah said in His Book such-and-such a verse," and we say, "The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said in such-and-such a verse," and that the Companions interpreted this verse or explained it, explaining this hadith in such-and-such a way with such-and-such an application.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : And they, praise be to Allah, these Bosnians, have a quick understanding. The least education for any young man you find is high school, and many of them have university degrees. But of course, not religious universities, but other matters. However, their minds are open, they can discuss, and they know logic. So when you say logic, if you are a Muslim, then the Book of Allah and the Sunnah are necessary, so he submits to this matter.

The Shaykh : I mean, they are different from the Afghans?

The questioner : Yes, because there are no scholars among them who say, "This is my scholar, he said such-and-such, and nothing else."

The Shaykh : Ah.

The questioner : And sometimes they discuss based on what they are accustomed to in the Hanafi school, because the Hanafi school is the prevalent school there, but they do not know what a school is.

The Shaykh : Authentic

The questioner : Praise be to Allah, this was the standard between us and them. We found much good in our brother Mahmoud Karalic, and also in the brothers who are commanders of the factions, we found this good and this creed.

The Shaykh : Great.

The questioner : We distributed the youth in several areas because we agreed with these Muslim forces that we do not want a separate front for the Arabs, but rather we stand side by side with them and support them, and that the field command is theirs. We participate with them in planning, we participate with them in scouting, which we call reconnaissance, and we participate with them in fighting if we find that the fighting will be successful, by the will of the Exalted, or that victory will be by the will of the Exalted, or that victory will be by the will of Allah our ally.

The Shaykh : Good.

The questioner : This was the agreement, praise be to Allah. No operation did we undertake without participation in all these matters and seeing that they would be good Islamic matters. In the beginning, as I said, about a month ago, up to a month ago, we were coordinating or cooperating with TO, or how is that? That when attacking, they attack from one area and we attack from another area, then we meet in a place so that the application, the military application, is coordinated.

The Shaykh : On a landline?

The questioner : Yes, the one that is not a phone but wireless.

The Shaykh : Wireless.

The questioner : Yes, we communicated by wireless during the attack. Most of it was an attack from our side, meaning from the Muslim forces. We found laziness from the TO forces, fleeing at the sound of the first shot, a bomb exploding, or a shell coming, or that they flee from their place and so on. But we, praise be to Allah, stand firm and fight. So there were two battles, praise be to Allah, that succeeded, and we were able to open places, repel the enemy, kill them, and take many prisoners. In one battle, four prisoners and the dead, meaning those we saw, were fifteen. Also, in another place, the dead were many, and three of us were killed, and previously eight. So these are the dead. The rest of the fighting continued to be a back-and-forth, where our youth would go to one of their hotels in a calm and militarily precise manner, throw bombs or spray with bullets, then flee immediately. This was very successful, until the Bosnian youth reached the point where they were advancing, and they were our youth, because they are accustomed to climbing mountains. There are many mountains there, so our brothers did not have the quick fitness, so the Bosnians were faster than us in the attack.

The Shaykh : What Allah willed.

The questioner : And praise be to Allah, they were, meaning, pioneers. They were pioneers in fighting and also in sacrifice, praise be to Allah. This is what they said: "We found this thing in you, and we knew that death is in the hand of Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He), and that you attack and return before us, with a torrent of bullets around you, and nothing hit you." For example, the battle I mentioned previously where eight of us were killed is called the Battle of Besiko. In this battle, I asked because I was in the rear, not in the field, so I asked the brothers how the attack was, and we heard this radio saying that the number of Arab mujahideen was five thousand. They said, "Yes, by Allah, we saw the number of shells that were thrown at us as if they were watching five thousand." The heavy shelling, the spraying with bullets, the attack, and much more. So they said, "Perhaps they are watching us as five thousand."

The Shaykh : Strange.

The questioner : And the number of their dead was many. This is what we found. So the last battle, about a month ago, was not a battle, but we found that the TO army had some betrayal, and Allah knows best. It was as follows, to ensure if this was betrayal, because our youth were broadcast in other places, it was rumored among the Islamic countries that there was betrayal from TO. But we did not find what we could interpret as betrayal, but we found in them laziness or fleeing or fear of death or fear of wounds. So I used to say to them, "O brothers, this is not..."

The Shaykh : Betrayal.

The questioner : Betrayal, but cowardice and fleeing. And I cannot say that this is betrayal.

The Shaykh : Well done.

The questioner : But when this incident happened, it was a blessing for us, for a harmful thing can be beneficial. It was that there was an area controlled by, meaning a front controlled by TO, most of whom are Muslims, and our youth in another place nearby, also controlled by our youth, the Muslim forces.

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.

The questioner : When I say our youth, I mean the Bosnians and the Arabs.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : So they informed our youth that the Serbian forces had occupied the area where TO was.

The Shaykh : Ah.

The questioner : And that they had fled, these TO. So the youth went, and within an hour, they were able to repel the enemy from this place.

The Shaykh : Good.

The questioner : In the morning, they learned of it in the morning. In the morning, they went immediately and were able to take control of this area. But all day, nothing happened. But after sunset, fifty TO soldiers came and said, "Praise be to Allah that you controlled and returned this area to us, and now we can control it. So go and rest, and there is an operation we will undertake to repel the enemy further, around three o'clock before dawn."

The Shaykh : is it

The questioner : So the youth returned to their places and waited for three o'clock. They asked by wireless if the battle would start. They said no, but it was delayed until six o'clock in the morning. So they waited until six o'clock. And then they learned that the Serbian army had managed to occupy the area again.

The Shaykh : Ah.

The questioner : The youth were surprised by that because they did not hear the sound of a single bullet, and at the same time, they were close, meaning they were not more than a kilometer away from the area, they could hear any bullet.

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.

The questioner : Except for the shells.

The Shaykh : And what they heard.

The questioner : And what they did not hear, what was it?

The Shaykh : Its meaning is "I have been safe, completely safe."

The questioner : So they were indignant; they were very indignant about that. But also, an order came to them from the military command to withdraw from the entire area because there were about five thousand Serbian soldiers, fully armed with weapons and tanks, advancing, and you would be caught in a pincer, and it would end in [defeat]. This was a military order that you must all withdraw. There were about five hundred Muslim forces in that area. The orders came strictly: whoever defies the military order will face death. The young men were forced to comply, and they were weeping, with tears streaming from them, because it was an area with some villages, and the residents also began to migrate from that area. They also returned to the third line of fire, near the city of Travnik. When I learned of this, I went to the commander of the Muslim forces in his village. That was on a Saturday; the battle had taken place on Friday, and I met him on Sunday. He was very upset about what had happened and said, "If we do not separate in this army with our own Muslim forces, this army [TO], then I will stay in the house and not go out, and each person will take care of his own affairs, and I am not a commander. I will call for a meeting of the Muslim force factions on Monday, because Saturday and Sunday are a holiday. On Monday, we will decide what we can do." So I met with the commander and some of the factions and the commanders of the factions. We were gathering when our brother, the commander of the Muslim forces in the area, named Asim, came and said that the General Command of the Muslim forces in Sarajevo had ordered a change of command in that area. The order came to counter the attack under the leadership of the commander of the Muslim forces, and that the [TO] army personnel would be under his command. We asked him if the planning would be done by us. He said no, but the planning would be done by [TO], by the high command. We said, "No, we are gathered now for this issue, and we have decided, after studying the matter, that either we have a strong army recognized by the state, like [TO] or [HBO], or everyone returns to his home and defends only his home." So our brother, Mahmoud Karlic, sent the telegram to the General Command of the Armed Forces in Sarajevo with this request. Praise and grace belong to Allah, after two days, a senior officer came and presented us with the final approval that the Muslim forces had become a recognized army, with all rights and full recognition. The system followed there is that any army that controls an area can govern it as it wishes. So [HBO] governs in their way, and [TO] governs in their way, and the Muslim forces also govern in their way, which is [performance]. I do not know if I mentioned the conditions for joining the Muslim forces for any individual. The conditions are: one swears by the Great Allah that he will be sincere to Allah, that he will maintain the five daily prayers, that he will forbid drinking alcohol and approaching women [illicitly], and that he will not use cursing and insults among ourselves, because unfortunately, there is a custom practiced among them, which is cursing the Lord, may Allah protect us from that, like in some countries we find in the Arab states. So this was agreed upon from the beginning. And whenever a group of twenty or thirty people gathered in the Muslim forces, a ceremony was held for them every week. I attended this ceremony, and they would recite this oath loudly, affirming that they were so, and then they would join the Muslim forces. Indeed, the Muslim forces established a military police to monitor these people. And indeed, it happened that we had trained twenty people, meaning we conducted the military training for the Bosnian brothers to join the Muslim forces. There were two people arrested on the charge of drinking alcohol, so they brought them to us because they had been trained. They asked us about the morality of these two. The military police conducted an investigation. We told them we had not found anything of the sort in them; perhaps it happened to them, but during the fifteen days they stayed with us, we did not find this thing. They arrest anyone who violates this oath and put him in prison for a certain period until he repents, or the military police rules a certain period of imprisonment. This is what happened. We are now fighting with these armies, the Muslim forces, which have achieved victories and established a military presence in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The Shaykh : The Muslim?

The questioner : The Muslim. The Muslim leadership has its say, and it has the right to fight without informing even the high command in Sarajevo. That is, in any battle we want to attack or plan, the high command of the armed forces in Sarajevo has no right to know what we are doing.

The Shaykh : Okay, does this agreement allow them to supply you with weapons?

The questioner : Who supplies us with weapons?

The Shaykh : The official Bosnian army.

The questioner : Yes, if they have any, because I saw the warehouses myself, and they are empty, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Even with them?

The questioner : Yes, they have been empty for a long time, because the state, the state of Serbia, which was a colony, when it wanted to leave, it took with it all the army and equipment. Eighty-five percent of the army in Yugoslavia was a Serbian army. So the Bosnian army has nothing in its warehouses because the state of Serbia wanted to give independence to Bosnia and Herzegovina, so it took all the equipment with it.

The Shaykh : Okay, Professor Abu 'Abd al-'Aziz, now is the time for jihad.

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Since there are no weapons to help you perform your jihad duty, how can you perform jihad?

The questioner : Yes, we were able to buy, my Shaykh, for our individuals, and the Muslim forces also started buying when individual aid came from some merchants from the Gulf states, and some brothers were able to smuggle weapons into the interior. But these are called light weapons; there are no tanks or planes with the Muslim forces, but there are some cannons and some ammunition, though not in sufficient quantity. But praise and grace belong to Allah, now some Muslim Arab brothers have started bringing weapons from outside, and some weapons are sold by the Croats themselves. I buy a lot of weapons and ammunition from the Croats, but this costs a large amount. Yes, but praise and grace belong to Allah, there is no one among us who does not have a rifle, some grenades, some anti-tank cannons, and some simple things that we have been able to stop the enemy's advance, at least in many areas. Praise and grace belong to Allah, during the past six months, the enemy has not been able to advance in any place where our mujahideen Arab forces or the Muslim forces are present. But the enemy advanced in the areas where [HBO] is, which is mostly Croats and a few Muslims, and also in the areas of [TO], to the point that entire cities were entered and seized by the Serbs during the past six months. As for us, praise and grace belong to Allah, we are still [holding]. Every place where the Muslim forces are, we have been able to [fall back or control] or repel the enemy. We find that the enemy throws its shells north and south without focus when there is any battle or attack from our side. I would like to mention some side notes, as they are called. There was a group of Arab youth who arrived in an area named Vishe. Ghassan visited this area, which is controlled by [TO], and they established this group for themselves, about twenty-five or thirty people. I had sent them a message and met one of them, saying, "We do not trust these [TO] people, so please do not trust them, do not work with them, come with us." But they were under the umbrella of one of the organizations or bodies. These brothers were under the umbrella of one of the bodies, and they set up a front from which they fought. And it was a great disaster when they carried out brutal operations against the Serbs, such that they were beheading [heads].

The Shaykh : Excuse me, who carried out the brutal operations?

The questioner : The Arab brothers.

The Shaykh : How?

The questioner : What is the savagery? They launched an attack just as we do, killed three Serbs, beheaded them, and brought the heads to one of the nearby villages, placing them in front of the people until some of them even played with them like a ball.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : Some of them took one of the heads in their hand and photographed it.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : Unfortunately, two days later, in retaliation against the Serbs, they launched a large army and managed to kill three of the Arab brothers, while the rest fled. The one who had the camera left it in the area, and they left their weapons behind. They had not taken any training or precautions. In fact, they had come to me a day before and said, "We feel that the Serbian army might attack us. Is there anything we can do? I mean, can we cooperate?" I told them, "I have informed you that I do not deal with TO, and I advised you, but come, let us see tomorrow at our brother Mahmut Karalic's place if there is at least a possibility of defense." So, the next day, we went to Mahmut Karalic, and while we were gathered, news came of the attack and the killing of three of the Arab brothers in that area called Vishe, and the fleeing of the rest after they left behind much of their weapons, especially the camera they had used to photograph the heads. As I learned later, after some time, it was a retaliation against the Serbs, not the occupation, because on the second day, "TO" launched a counter-attack to defeat the enemy, but the Serbs carried out what they wanted as retaliation. This organization or body that was supporting them, or under whose umbrella they were operating, sent a representative from within Croatia, from Split, from outside Bosnia and Herzegovina. He found this problem and was suffering from some issues with these brothers, so he gave them three solutions, one of which they had to adhere to: the first was to join the group of Abu 'Abd al-'Aziz, because this organization or body did not want a separate front for itself. So these brothers joined me.

The Shaykh : Good.

The questioner : Or that they return to their countries, or that they be supporters of "TO" and not of the front, meaning they should not have a front of their own but be under the "TO" umbrella, because the mountain is high. So, some of them, approximately more than half, came to me and joined me, while most of the rest returned to their countries. When these brothers came, I placed them in the training field, meaning they were to train first so that they would have fitness and so on. But they did not continue; most of them returned, and only two or three remained with us.

The Shaykh : Did they return to their countries?

The questioner : Yes, they returned to their countries. This is a footnote I wanted to mention because our brother Ghassan mentioned the central area, which is the Tishen area, and indicated that the Islamic army there did not adhere to the teachings of the religion, or that they lack the victory of Allah, the lawful victory.

The Shaykh : Ah.

The questioner : This is the reason, and he even mentioned their name, "COT," but it is not "COT," it is "TO."

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : And that there are some wrongdoings among them, and this is because they are not part of the Muslim forces. In fact, I asked our brother Mahmut Karalic if there were any Muslim forces in that area. He said, "No, but we welcome any army or any group that comes to us and adheres to our teachings, and we monitor them, and then there is nothing wrong with them."

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : So I wanted to mention this. From the perspective of our honorable Shaykh, the land of Bosnia and Herzegovina is fertile ground for da'wah and guidance from any group. Unfortunately, the new arrivals include the Shi'ah from Iran, who started in an area far from us, in a place called La Ilaha Illa Allah, near Sarajevo, meaning an area close to Sarajevo. They started with a plan, and because of their previous propaganda about the Islamic state and Khomeini and so on, they started with marriage.

The Shaykh : Temporary marriage?

The questioner : Perhaps it is temporary marriage, I do not know, but according to what I heard from our brother Ghassan, and he is, if Allah wills, truthful in this matter, of course, temporary marriage is a normal thing for them.

The Shaykh: It is permissible.

The questioner : So they are now getting married.

The Shaykh : They are getting married to...

The questioner : They are getting married to Bosnian women, displaying good morals and also displaying... These Bosnians, due to their simplicity and their little knowledge, respond to these calls.

The Shaykh : Because La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

The questioner : Yes, because they do not show their true nature, as they use taqiyyah, so they do not display their enmity toward the Companions or anything of that sort.

The Shaykh : Is it taqiyyah, Professor? Or is it taqiyah?
Abu Malik: Taqiyyah.

The Shaykh : It is taqiyyah. I often hear it as taqiyah.

The questioner : Taqiyyah. Unfortunately, this is also something that, until now, I have not found in the followers of the other madhahib, but rather brothers from...

The Shaykh : Christian missionaries, are there any?

The questioner : Yes, this is another matter I would like to address. Many of the women and children who migrate from within Bosnia to the outside are received by churches or foreign European countries, which take a pledge from the mothers or from the elders who migrate with them not to contact them again.

The Shaykh : Allahu Akbar.

The questioner : And they present on television or on video their way of life, showing that they live a European life free from dirt or anything of the sort, and that they will enjoy a healthy life and so on. They request that no one contact them at any time, meaning for an indefinite period. The number of these children has reached more than twenty-five thousand. Some of them went to Italy, of course to the Vatican, and some to Germany, France, and other countries. When I learned of this, initially it was five thousand or something like that, I went to the officials and condemned this matter. They said, "Okay, what is the solution?"

The Shaykh : You mean, excuse me, officials from where?

The questioner : Bosnian Muslim officials.

The Shaykh : In the same Muslim army?

The questioner : Muslim civilians.

The Shaykh : Civilians.

The questioner : How can you let them come and take our children and do this? They said the only solution is if there are Islamic countries that can attract these orphans and raise them; we are ready to retrieve them by force of law or something similar. I asked them if there was anything in the agreement about this. They said, "No, but perhaps..." or the remaining children, as there are still many children. I sent the news to several relief organizations, but there was no response. These relief organizations provide them with food and drink in refugee camps only; there are no shelters for the Muslim brothers or orphans in Bosnia and Herzegovina. They say, "Why are you retrieving the migrants outside Bosnia and Herzegovina? Why? Because whenever migrants come to an area, they are told to go outside Bosnia, because there is food, drink, and shelter there, even if the shelter is tents or something similar. Now the temperature has reached five degrees below zero, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Allahu Akbar.

The questioner : And they are living in very poor heating conditions.

The Shaykh : Allahu Akbar.

The questioner : Or there is no heating at all. So five degrees below zero for children and women, meaning perhaps mothers see this and say, "Let my child go and live instead of dying of freezing."

The Shaykh : There is no power nor strength except with Allah.

The questioner : They say, "Why don't these brothers have internal migration? Come and open up; we are ready to give you school buildings or camps to bring these migrants in and distribute them internally." But few do this, and not in a sustainable way.

The Shaykh : Do you mean the aid we hear is sent from Saudi Arabia is not real?

The questioner : As far as I can see, it arrives, but where does it go? By Allah, Shaykh, I cannot answer because of my preoccupation with combat work. I cannot deny or confirm that it arrives or does not arrive, as I am not in a position to respond to that, whether it is from Saudi organizations or non-Saudi ones, because there are organizations numbering up to thirty. I even went to almost all of them asking for food aid for the young men of the Muslim forces so that we would not have to buy from our own funds instead of buying...

The Shaykh : weapons.

The questioner : We buy food with weapons, and these people are able to supply us. So the denial and vague silence from many was such that one of the heads of the relief organizations, its president, met with me personally and said, "My brother, you know that we have offices in Europe and America." He pointed with his hand to the world map and the points placed in some European countries, indicating that he has offices in these regions. He said, "If we provide you with food, they will accuse us of supplying the mujahideen with food, and they will close our offices and deprive us of other matters." And I have a witness to that.

The Shaykh : When did this happen?

The questioner : This was at the beginning of the jihad, when we were also going to several organizations. Their encouragement was only with their tongues, but we were unable to get anything from them.

The Shaykh : This is the problem, Abu 'Abd al-'Aziz. They say in Sham: "One hand cannot clap." It needs two hands together. So jihad, as you know from the Noble Qur'an, requires preparation. And this preparation mentioned in the verse is clearly a command for material preparation, especially when the hadith of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) came explaining the word "strength." He (peace be upon him) said, as I think you know: But I want to draw attention to...

The questioner : May I mention something here?

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.

The questioner : Praise and grace be to Allah, we are self-sufficient in terms of food and drink, although some food items come to us from some of the brothers.

The Shaykh : What kind of things?

The questioner : Food items from individuals, not through the organizations. And the people of the country, by Allah, we found them to be generous, O our Shaykh. The generosity of these Bosnians is something strange, O our Shaykh; we did not find it in Afghanistan, nor in Kashmir, nor in Africa, nor in the Philippines, the places I have visited and know.

The Shaykh : Strange.

The questioner : So these people, by Allah, cut from their food and their drink, from the milk and...