A word by Ibrahim Shuqqa on the saying of Allah the Exalted: “And if you differ about anything, refer it to Allah and His Messenger.”

Abu Malik: We know that the history of Islam, the scientific history of Islam, is full.

The Shaykh: Here, let’s go.
Abu Malik: Through the debates that took place among the scholars of the Muslims, and especially among the scholars of the Islamic sects that were known and many of which have disappeared, while some still remain apparent either in themselves or in the effects they left behind. But despite the clear difference between these sects, from which emerged eminent scholars, writers, poets, hadith scholars, memorizers, philosophers, doctors, and other types of scholars, none of these sects ever disagreed on the principle that every sect reads as explicit texts in the Book of Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He. Among them is this Qur’anic text mentioned by our Shaykh . I do not think that any Muslim on the face of the earth, past, present, or future, has ever denied this principle from the start. If the debate we hoped for between our Shaykh and the brother Abu Yasser is contingent on the word “yes” or “no,” and if the respondent’s tongue is unable to say this word and answer with it, then perhaps I can say on behalf of the brother Abu Yasser that he agrees with this principle, because he is a Muslim who says “There is no god but Allah” and acknowledges that this Qur’anic text has not been abrogated. If this text had been abrogated, we would not have accepted it as a basis for discussion and debate. But since the principle remains established in the Book of Allah, Mighty and Majestic, and it is a principle of creed, not a principle of legal rulings.

The Shaykh : May Allah have mercy on you.
Abu Malik: Rather, it is a principle of creed. Whoever denies it or deviates from it through a distant or near interpretation that removes the reality of its content, or abrogates or distorts its meaning, is not a believer. I do not think that the brother Abu Yasser will not relinquish his insistence, because he is facing a Qur’anic text, and it is not befitting for him to insist on not agreeing to hold this debate, which is hoped to be beneficial by the permission of Allah, by saying the word “yes” or the word “no.” He undoubtedly said “no,” and so the matter of the session ended. But if he wants the session to continue, and he is eager for it, I do not think he would begrudge himself and the brothers present by saying “yes.” I am content for this principle to be the criterion for this session and the axis around which the discussion revolves.

The Shaykh : About

The questioner: Brother Abu Malik, I am extremely eager to meet with Muslims and discuss with them to unite the word. As you know, I am not a person of glory. If you came to my private life, I am not seeking status. If you knew that after sixty-one years of age, and I am not a person with a degree that I want to climb up with to become an advisor to someone, then I am.

The Shaykh: Question.
Abu Yasser: The test of teachers is with me, and you know it, after the seventh grade of primary school. So the matters are closed. I am eager for Islam.

The Shaykh: Question.

The questioner: Please! I am eager for Islam. My eagerness for Islam drives me to find an organization for how the discussion should proceed!

The Shaykh : What Allah willed.

The questioner: It drives me to structure the discussion, otherwise the matter becomes futile. We do not want this futility, nor do we seek it, nor do we strive for it. The issue of using verses from the Noble Qur’an: there is no verse in the Noble Qur’an that has not been differed upon in more than one aspect of interpretation!

The Shaykh : I seek refuge in Allah.

The questioner: In more than one aspect, verbally. There is no verse in the Book of Allah that has not been differed upon in more than one aspect of interpretation. The proof of that is that if I read the tafsir of Ibn Kathir... Please.
Abu Malik: There is disagreement on it!

The questioner: I allowed you both continuous speech. I allowed you both continuous speech.

The Shaykh: This is what we feared.

The questioner: And I committed fully to not interrupt the speech of either of you. So please, do not interrupt!

The Shaykh: You have no role in speaking, so it cannot be said that you are interrupting or not!

The questioner: The role of speaking is mine. The role of speaking is mine. But there is, my brother, a specific agreement. I would like this agreement to be read. I would like the agreement to be read. This matter is clear. And the second matter: the first of the rational proofs. Do you start from this point? That means it is not permissible for you to make the first argument for Allah over His creation the intellect? Do you start from this point? This is one. As for the second one that no one is willing to read, which is that we agreed that the number should be equal so that we can be lenient with it... Please... This condition is met.
Abu Malik: We are all ready to go out. The brother who is recording and the brother Abdul Fattah, and we will let you...
Abu Yasser: And that is from us, from me.
Abu Malik: In any case...

The Shaykh: There is no power nor strength except with Allah.
Abu Malik: Since the matter is so, the truth is that there is no room for continuing this discussion. And I hope our Shaykh will end this session, or the session.

The Shaykh: I say that after he said the word “no,” which no Muslim who knows what comes out of his mouth would say, that every verse in the Qur’an has several interpretations has an interpretation. A person who says this cannot be challenged to a mubahalah. Allah is the Greatest.

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh: Allah is the Greatest. This is a great fitnah.

The questioner: Peace be upon you.

The Shaykh: And peace be upon those who follow the guidance... The brother, do you know them?
Abu Malik: No, a contractor from the contractors!

The Shaykh: Ah, he answered your question. Why?

The questioner: That he knows him...

The Shaykh: He has known him for a long time.

Another questioner : ... .

The Shaykh: I see an infection in him!

Another questioner: ... meaning a specific scrutiny and investigation of reality. So there is no room for hadiths or Qur’anic verses in this. Meaning, when you research Greek philosophy, you want to investigate Greek philosophy from the era of Socrates to Plato to Aristotle, and you find that the strength of Greek philosophy was, in its entirety, a polytheistic philosophy. This statement does not require [evidence]. Meaning, when we research this subject, it is absolutely not appropriate to agree that the Qur’an and the Sunnah are the reference. The Qur’an and the Sunnah are the reference in legal matters. But when we speak about, let us suppose, the subject of the goal of man, or we speak about how man thinks, or how man’s thought rises, or how nations rise!
Abu Malik: It is not necessary to bring a verse or a hadith!

Another questioner: This subject is a subject of investigating reality among humans, or reality among man. So when the subject is related to investigating historical reality, or civilizational reality, or reality related to societies or groups, or related to the composition and constitution of man, then it is not agreed upon in its references that the Book and the Sunnah are the reference. Rather, the Book and the Sunnah are the reference for every Muslim within the circle of the Book and the Sunnah!

The Shaykh : Okay...

Another questioner: And therefore, if you understood from the brother’s words... There is no Muslim, because this speech contains insult. The speech you spoke in contains insult to the person, insult to the person who is Abu Yasser, because when you say it is a covert operation of takfir against him, that he is a person who does not accept...

The Shaykh: It is not covert, may Allah bless you. You are now delving into a matter that has absolutely no relation to the subject. And if you allow me, my opinion!

Another questioner: I consider this speech to contain deliberate insult... with the intention, as if the person wants to win a round by right or by wrong...

The Shaykh: Allow me, Professor. This is not the subject you are speaking about now. Did you hear with your ears what he said? Did you hear!

Another questioner: I heard it...

The Shaykh: I am asking you now. Do not repeat the story, A, B, C. I am asking you: did you hear? Say yes, say no?

Another questioner: I heard that he did not say that he would not refer to the Book and the Sunnah!

The Shaykh: That is not it!

Another questioner: No Muslim says that!

The Shaykh: Listen, my brother, may Allah guide you. I am asking you: did you hear what he said from his words? “There is no verse in the Book of Allah that Muslims have not differed upon in aspects.” I am asking you now, and I hope you do not repeat the story with Abu Yasser. I hope for a clear answer, then explain as you wish. Did you hear this speech: “There is no verse in the Noble Qur’an,” and he repeated this word. It is possible you did not hear it, so it is recorded. “There is no verse that Muslims have not differed upon in aspects.” Did you hear it from him?

Another questioner: This is not the subject of the debate...

The Shaykh: ... You, Shaykh, are clear. You and he are the same. I am asking you: did you hear?

Another questioner: This is a departure from the subject of the debate!

The Shaykh : Look, look, Allahu Akbar... Between you and me, listen, 'Abd al-Fattah. The man left and we are done with him. I hope the story is not repeated now. I am asking you, and I hope your answer is frank if you know, and if you do not know, half-knowledge is not knowledge! You are not obligated to answer what you do not know. I am asking you now: what is your opinion of a man who says, "There is no verse in the Book of Allah in which the Muslims have not differed on more than one aspect"? What do you say?

Another questioner : This is a matter, this is a matter.

The Shaykh : He will not answer...

The questioner : This is not my case, it is not my case. I did not say that...

The Shaykh : My brother, I am not saying it is your case! May Allah guide you! I am asking you, what is your opinion, and you are a Muslim?

Another questioner : This is not my case!

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you, my brother. It is not your case, nor is it Zayd's case. I am asking you now, in your capacity as a Muslim?

Another questioner : This is my case, it is not between you and you.

The Shaykh : Himself...

The questioner : I only wanted to interject because I found that there was some insinuation and mockery regarding the man, and this talk is not permissible as a confrontation of the truth!

The Shaykh : This is not correct, but we proclaim the truth. The man who says this verse, "There is no verse," and you must know, did he not start with Greek philosophy and so on? What do you have to do with this talk! You know, in the case of His saying, the Exalted: there are opinions! You must know, if you do not know?

Another questioner : I understand that this is not a matter of debate, it is not a matter of debate!

The Shaykh : Allahu Akbar, please go ahead.

Another questioner : ... If you please, I want to respond to the brother with the same phrase he used... This man wants to talk about a person, about him being a human being

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.

Another questioner : And therefore he has his instincts and ambitions. And he believes that this human being was not created by Allah. The instincts and ambitions and... to Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He, He is the One who created them in the human being. He is the One who brought this instinct into existence. There is nothing, great or small, that does not exist. The One who created this human being is the most knowledgeable about him. So when you address any matter of human life, you find in the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) what covers it. Now, a human being does not search in isolation from the fact that the human being is created by Allah, the Exalted. It is from the category of idle talk to isolate this human being, who is created by Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He, and strip him as if he stands by himself... with no Creator, and no world created by Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He, and no relations that the Qur'an and the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) established and regulated. Even the relation of a human being to another human being, the relation of a human being to his neighbor, the relation of a human being to himself and his work, has a legal ruling. This is what we refer to Allah and His Messenger. As for the human being, when we discuss the human mind, who created the human mind! The course of the conversation was about to turn to the idea that the existence of this human being thinks, so if it agrees with his mind, he accepts it, otherwise he rejects it. This was the course, but we forgot that the One who created the human being and created the human mind and developed this life and subjected everything in this universe to the human being is Allah, Glorified and Exalted is He. So this human being does not live in isolation from his Creator, nor does he live in isolation from the earth that Allah created, nor does he live even in... and as the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) taught us. So any research outside this scope is idle talk, it is play!

The Shaykh : I add to your words, and may Allah reward you with good. What does Abu... what are you called?

Another questioner : Abu Karim.

The Shaykh : Abu Salim.

Another questioner : Abu Karim.

The Shaykh : Welcome. Every person has his mind, but among all these minds, there is no unified mind to which one returns. What is your opinion of this question? Here, you just now did not answer about the verse, so I am now discussing you logically. I am rational and you are rational, and all the attendees are rational. Is there a unified mind? If I and you differ on a rational issue that is not religious, do we return to this unified mind to judge between us? Answer me, I hope for a brief answer?

Another questioner : I will answer you. There is no unified mind among humans, and therefore people do not agree on the understanding of the Shari'ah either!

The Shaykh : I did not ask you that!

Another questioner : I have the right to answer you...

The Shaykh : My brother, the answer should be within the scope of the question. May Allah bless you... do not give a lecture...

Another questioner : You have the right to ask, and I answer in the way I am convinced!

The Shaykh : No problem.

Another questioner : As I answer you, just as there is no unified mind, so there is no unified understanding of the Shari'ah. And therefore, understandings clash in understanding the Shari'ah. You are a Salafi, you understand matters that the Sufi did not understand, and the liberal did not understand, and the Mu'tazili did not understand, and the people did not understand...

The Shaykh : If so, then...

The questioner : All these people, their source, their reference is the Book and the Sunnah, except that their understandings are different and contradictory. And likewise, in purely rational matters, people differ!

The Shaykh: Are you finished?

Another questioner: Go ahead.

The Shaykh : If you return to the opinion of Abu Yasser, may Allah guide you, without you knowing or feeling, or knowing and feeling, you have returned to saying there is no ruling to which we return. And I mention this to you! You admitted to me that if my mind differs from your mind and my thought from your thought in conceiving a certain issue, that we do not have a unified mind to which we return! We agreed on this point. Good. Is there a reference to which we return if I and you differ on a certain issue? What does your word mean? Also, there is no reference. And this is disbelief in Allah and His Messenger. Because Allah said in the explicit previous verse, and I have a plan and study of these differences existing among Muslims today. I posed the question in which two Muslims should not differ: . May our Lord guide you, you who claim Islam, and you who claim to establish the Muslim state, on what! On your mind and his mind and so-and-so's mind? No, but on the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). As for your saying, exactly like his saying, that there is no verse in which the Muslims have not differed, this is a lie and this is disbelief in Allah and His Messenger. Because Allah, Mighty and Majestic, did not send down the Book except as an explanation of everything. And this is a fact, I hope you do not doubt it, if you please.

Another questioner: Go ahead.

The Shaykh: If you permit.

Another questioner : I hope you are not attributing to me words I did not say, otherwise the conversation would be outside the scope of integrity and mindfulness of Allah.

The Shaykh : Allow me, my brother!

Another questioner : I did not say that every verse and every hadith the Muslims differed on!

The Shaykh : You said this very thing!

Another questioner : I did not say this!

The Shaykh : Well, what do you say!

Another questioner : I said the words. Do not attribute to people and attribute to them... This is a clear fabrication! Rewind the tape, rewind the tape...

The Shaykh : Be patient a little.

Another questioner : If I did not say this, if you are attributing to me what I did not say...

The Shaykh : I am attributing to you!

Another questioner : You started, excuse me, Professor! You are a brother, Abu 'Abd al-Karim. You started the conversation when Abu Yasser left, in the conversation about Abu Yasser or in the stance toward Abu Yasser.

Another questioner : ... .

Another questioner : You started the conversation, man! Please, with what did you start? In the last part of the conversation, you started about the stance of Abu Yasser. Abu Yasser, whenThe Shaykh : He was asked about the noble verse, he said something strange. I am imagining for the first time that someone would say this: there is no verse in which the Muslims have not differed in its understanding! This talk is definitely a lie. And I asked you, Abu Karim...

The questioner : I said it is not my case...

Another questioner : You defended him. It is your case. There is no place for research between you and him, man. You are a listener!

Another questioner : ... He lies to me while I am sitting!

Another questioner : He did not lie to you, excuse me.

Another questioner : I told you it is not my case, and therefore I did not say that every verse and hadith the Muslims differed on. That is my opinion!

The Shaykh : You finished your talk. You finished your talk, you finished.
The questioner: ...

The Shaykh : There is no power or strength except by Allah. O Shaykh, may Allah guide you. You finished... about what I asked? You finished?

The questioner : There is no room to complete the conversation, unfortunately, and then you distribute takfir (declaring someone a disbeliever) to people!

The Shaykh : There is no power or strength!

Another questioner : You are like the Pope, issuing certificates of takfir to people...

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you!... Abu AhmadAbu Layla ... .

Another questioner : He did not say in your words that it is disbelief...

The Shaykh : O Shaykh, may Allah guide you... You are establishing the state of Islam with ignorance of Islam! Allahu Akbar! I had not heard... O Khalid, lookAbu Layla : He does not do anything for us... the reason... May Allah guide you... This is an argument against them...