Did we understand better, or did Ibn 'Umar and Abu Hurayrah understand better?

The Shaykh : So now, if we stand face to face, as they say, before the most zealous of the Companions in following the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him), namely 'Abd Allah ibn 'Umar, and the argument of Allah against His servants today is that this noble Companion is one of the narrators of His saying (peace and blessings be upon him) and yet he takes less than a handful. What do you think of this Companion? Are you more understanding of what he heard from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) than he was? What do you say?

The questioner : I say, we do not know his evidence, O Shaykh, in taking it.

The Shaykh : Is there one of you who will be fair to me? This man does not answer my question. Glory be to Allah.

The questioner : It is strange, O Shaykh. We do not know.

The Shaykh : O Shaykh, may Allah guide you. This is the answer to my question. What is my question?

The questioner : Your question.

The Shaykh : What is my question? I am asking you?

The questioner : I will answer you, okay, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : No, you are not answering me. Tell me, what is my question?

The questioner : I want to answer you, so tell me what your question is. I want to repeat your question to you: Is your understanding of this hadith better than Ibn 'Umar's, or is Ibn 'Umar's understanding of this hadith better than yours?

The Shaykh : Okay, did you answer me?

The questioner : Yes, if Allah wills, O Shaykh, I answered you.

The Shaykh : If Allah wills, no.

The questioner : I say, O Shaykh, we do not know his evidence, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : O my brother, did I say I know?

The questioner : There is no doubt that Ibn 'Umar is more understanding than I am and more knowledgeable about the hadith of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him).

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you. Why did you not say this before?

The questioner : O Shaykh, this is a matter of common sense.

The Shaykh : This is argumentation, O Shaykh. May Allah guide you.

The questioner : May Allah forgive you.

The Shaykh : This is argumentation.

The questioner : If Allah wills, it is not argumentation, O Shaykh. May Allah forgive you. I do not intend to argue. I am telling you that this is a matter of common sense.

The Shaykh : O Shaykh, I am not saying you intend to argue. I am not saying you do not know what argumentation is. I am telling you this is argumentation. I am asking you: Are you more knowledgeable, or is Ibn 'Umar? You tell me, "We do not know." What did the Messenger do? You tell me, "I answered."

The questioner : I do not know Ibn 'Umar's evidence, O Shaykh, in taking it.

The Shaykh : O my brother, I did not ask you what Ibn 'Umar's evidence is. I asked you about a matter concerning you yourself.

The questioner : O Shaykh, may Allah bless you. This is a matter of established fact, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : And why do you not say it is a matter of established fact?

The questioner : O Shaykh, this is a matter of established fact. No one would say, "Do I have to say I am not more understanding than you, O Shaykh, until I say I am more understanding than Ibn 'Umar?"

The Shaykh : O Shaykh, may Allah guide you. Part of the method of scientific research is to build an unknown case on a known case. May Allah guide you.

The questioner : O Shaykh... may Allah...

The Shaykh : This text you just presented to us says, "We do not know his evidence."

The questioner : O Shaykh, may Allah bless you. Yesterday I asked you...

The Shaykh : Yes.

Another questioner : I mean the vast majority...

The Shaykh : We have not yet reached the topic, O my brother, because he is telling you, "We do not know what his evidence is," if it is Ibn 'Umar.

Another questioner : His evidence is that he is the narrator of the hadith, and he is more aware.

The Shaykh : We tell him, he does not place between himself and his Lord. Ibn 'Umar is the evidence in understanding, and I am asking him: Are you more understanding, or is Ibn 'Umar? He says, "We do not know what his evidence is." Then he does not be fair to me, and finally he tells me, "This is known, O my brother." Okay, if this is known, and I ask you, is this light bulb on or off, you tell me it is known.

The questioner : Shaykh.

The Shaykh : I am asking you: Do you not know why I am asking you? If I ask you, is this light bulb on or off, you must know. I want to put a nail in it to build on it, to hang something on it. So do not tell me the answer is from the east or from the west. Tell me, yes, this light bulb is on, because I will ask you how it was lit. You will tell me, "I do not answer this question because it is a clear question." May Allah forgive you. This is the problem with the youth today, the students of knowledge. They are like this. They do not sit in the gatherings of knowledge and the precise scientific discussions. What happens to you if I ask you, do you pray, and I have seen you praying? What happens to you if I say, yes, and praise be to Allah, I pray? You tell me, "This is known," and you have seen me. What is this? Tell me. I am asking you about something, so answer with what is in your heart. And when you deviate from the answer, you make me feel that you are invalidating it, and you are not invalidating it, but you are distracted. So take this as a rule: Any person who asks you a question, and you believe in the answer that is in your heart, then disclose it and do not fear. So I am asking you: Are you more knowledgeable, or is Ibn 'Umar?

The questioner : Ibn 'Umar, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Okay, so do you argue with your understanding or with Ibn 'Umar's understanding? Do you see how the research works? The issue has a logical sequence that two people do not discuss, or two goats do not butt heads over. So do you, in that case, argue with your understanding of the hadith, between you and the one who spoke it are fourteen centuries, and you have been affected by foreign influence and negligence, and so on, or do you argue with Ibn 'Umar's understanding of this text, and he saw the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) day and night? The Messenger of Allah either excused it and he did not take anything from it at all, or he saw him taking it. And therefore, he, who is zealous in following the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) in an amazing way, and I think you are aware of that, is that not so?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh: Okay

The questioner : But he differed in some things, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : No problem, O professor. May Allah guide you. I do not claim that Ibn 'Umar is infallible, so you tell me he differed in some things.

The questioner : Despite his extreme zeal, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you. Listen now to what is said in response to him. Did he differ in this? Did he differ from the practical Sunnah that the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) was upon?

The questioner : Due to the generality of the hadith, he differed.

The Shaykh : O my brother, you have returned to your understanding. May Allah forgive you, may Allah forgive you, and may Allah guide you. You have returned to your understanding. Its effect on the Companion's understanding, and your Prophet says: And do you know that Ibn 'Umar is not alone in this field?

The questioner : I know.

The Shaykh : Do you also know?

The questioner : I know.

The Shaykh : So is your understanding more correct than the understanding of Ibn 'Umar and the understanding of Abu Hurayrah as well?

The questioner : No. But I, O Shaykh, have a distinction.

The Shaykh : Allow me a moment. How is it not? Now you have become contradictory.

The questioner : No. The understanding of Ibn 'Umar and the understanding of Abu Hurayrah, there is no doubt that they are more understanding than I am. But I, O Shaykh, and therefore I answered you at the beginning, I told you, I do not know the evidence of Abu Hurayrah and the evidence of Ibn 'Umar in their taking from the beard.

The Shaykh : I am not asking you, I am not researching the evidence with you. May Allah forgive you. I am only researching your understanding of the hadith. Between you and the hadith are fourteen centuries. Is your understanding more correct, or the understanding of Ibn 'Umar and the understanding of Abu Hurayrah, and they saw the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) day and night, and they narrated the hadith that you are understanding with an understanding contrary to their understanding? So any person now, whether in this circle or in another, if I tell them, by the state of affairs, and it is not necessary to say it with the tongue, if I say by the state of affairs, my understanding is more correct than the understanding of Ibn 'Umar and Abu Hurayrah, who would be with you in this understanding? Who would prefer your understanding, and you, like me, are a student of knowledge, and you are not a scholar, and you are not a pure Arab, and you have been affected by foreign influence as the others have been, and so on? Who would take your understanding of this text and leave the understanding of the pure Arab and the noble Companion who saw the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) day and night that the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not intend this understanding that you understand, as evidenced by the fact that the righteous Salaf did not take this general evidence? So you are now placing yourself in the position of the innovators, and you do not realize it at all, and this is something I am very sorry about. You do not realize your position. If a man came to you to argue with you about any innovation in the world, you would not be able to present an argument against him, and this is your logic, because he would say, "I understand from this hadith what the Salaf did not understand," and this is your logic.

The questioner : Never, O Shaykh. This is logical, and the logic of my Shaykhs whom I studied with.

The Shaykh : This is the speech of those people, O my brother. May Allah guide you. This is the speech of those people.

The questioner : Then what do we say, O Shaykh, about the action of Ibn 'Umar in putting water in his eyes, O Shaykh?

The Shaykh : Allahu Akbar.

The questioner : And the action of Ibn 'Umar in following the traces.

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you.

The questioner : His following of the traces of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you.

The questioner : I mean, is my understanding more of the understanding of Ibn 'Umar regarding the prohibition of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) of following the traces of the Prophet, as mentioned...

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you, say "Ameen."

The questioner : Amen, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : His father's understanding is more correct than his understanding. Okay, do you have your father's understanding?

The questioner : Many of the Companions, it is not established from them... O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : I will not answer, I will not answer. You are determined that you will not answer. You have decided for yourself that you will not answer the question except after going around and around.

The questioner : May Allah forgive you.

The Shaykh : Do you have 'Umar's understanding?

The questioner : I mean, I am stopping, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Yes, by Allah, as long as you are like this, I am asking you: Do you have Ibn 'Umar's understanding? You do not answer.

The questioner : I do not have 'Umar's understanding, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Yes, answer, my brother, so that Allah may guide you.

The questioner : May Allah bless you, O Shaykh. I told you this is one of the basics, so please, that is enough.

The Shaykh : My brother, when you finish the topic, I am not imposing research on you, but if you want to listen, listen. I am telling you:

The questioner : What is it?

The Shaykh : Listen, may Allah guide you. I am not imposing research on you. If you do not want to research, that is better for me because I save time for knowledge. But if you want to research, you must send the research, and for every question you say, "I have an answer for it," go ahead. But if you stray from the answer, I will ask you: Do you understand, or are you Ibn 'Umar? You would say, "I do not know his argument." But I will ask you: Do you have the understanding of 'Umar in the issue of following the athar? You do not answer. What is this?

The questioner : O Shaykh, may Allah bless you. Yesterday I asked you a question and told you: Is the athar of Ahmad valid or not? You said, "You do not apply it." You did not answer me, O Shaykh. Despite that, I did not say to you, for example, "O Shaykh, you deviated from the question."

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you.

The questioner : ... May Allah bless you. You did well.

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you.

The questioner : The suspicion, and I said, "O my Shaykh, this is an answer to my question."

The Shaykh : What is the question that I did not answer you on yesterday?

The questioner : The athar of Ahmad. I told you, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh: What is it?

The questioner : The athar from Ahmad (may Allah have mercy on him) when he was asked: Did he grasp? Did the man grasp after bowing, or did he leave it?

The Shaykh: Okay

The questioner : So I told you: Is the athar valid? You said to me: "You do not apply it." What?

The Shaykh : "You do not apply it" because... Allahu Akbar, O Shaykh, this is the style we are calling you to. You are arguing with something you do not apply, so what benefit is there in arguing with it?

The questioner : You, O Shaykh, tell me, for example, is it valid or not valid?

The Shaykh : I mean, if I asked you about a hadith and it is valid, and I say to you, "You do not apply it," what does this statement mean? That the hadith is not valid?

The questioner : No, no.

The Shaykh : You do not know.

The questioner : I see, I did not get an answer, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : O Shaykh, may Allah guide you, may Allah guide you. If you got the answer, look now how it is, and this group are witnesses now. You will not benefit from anything if I answer you according to your plan. You repeat the question: Is the athar of Imam Ahmad valid or not valid? Is that not your question?

The questioner : That is enough, O Shaykh. I am stopping. May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh : Good, you saved us.

Another questioner : If you allow me, O Shaykh, regarding this research.

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.