Discussion of the fitnah (trial) in Iraq and Kuwait, the intervention of the disbelieving powers, and the Muslim’s position regarding it.

The questioner : If you permit me, if you wish to ask after we have finished all our questions, there are some sisters who told me that they asked our brotherThe Shaykh : our brotherThe Shaykh : about the situation that occurred after Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, and I think the answer was that this is a fitnah (trial) between two Arab Muslim countries, and it is best that one does not get involved with either side. The current development is that there are now disbelievers present on the land of Islamic countries. I hope we do not enter into this unless you do not want political complications, but the Shari’ah ruling is that with the presence of this force, or the presence of this disbelieving force in the lands of the Muslims, is our position as Muslims still the same as the previous position, or is it supposed to change?

The Shaykh : What was the previous position?

The questioner : The previous position, my lord, I know that it was reported from you that between Iraq and Kuwait, this is a fitnah (trial). Now that is over between Iraq and Kuwait, but now it has become between Iraq and Kuwait, and in addition to that, there are other armies.

The Shaykh : Which is greater, the first or the second?

The questioner : By Allah, you tell us about that.

The Shaykh : I will tell you, but I am careful, but is there an obstacle to taking your opinion on the matter?

Another questioner : The second is greater.

The Shaykh : Is there doubt in this?

Another questioner : But my lord,The Shaykh : he gave you half the answer because he answered you...

The questioner : The first answer, the first part. The second part, because the Muslim is now confused, meaning not all Muslims are confused, and then there is the talk in the newspapers that the Muslim is passing around, many desires. What is the Shari’ah position?

The Shaykh : If you cut off my speech, I want to say a word now that may be somewhat tangential but is related to the subject. You say that the Muslims are confused. I say that most Muslims are not confused. Most Muslims are partisan, a group with these and a group with those. The small group is the confused one who does not know whether to join these or those, and this is the correct stance.

The questioner : To be confused?

The Shaykh : Yes, but I explained to you what I mean by confused, meaning he does not know whether to join these or those. Is my speech clear?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Well, my answer does not change after your clarification, and if I answered you, it is because if that was my advice as reported to you in the first fitnah (trial), and that is a first and more primary form, then my advice should stand in the greater fitnah (trial). This is because if the matter stopped between Kuwait and Iraq, what would people like us do? We would also split into two opinions, and this is also a reality from that day, with people saying that Iraq is the aggressor and I am with these, and the aggressor, so it is necessary that we fight the aggressor. Here I say no. Who will fight? The Kuwaitis, the ones against whom aggression was committed, they cannot fight and do not possess weapons, and they lived in luxury and permanent comfort, and as it is said, "In summer, you lost the milk." Now they have begun to prepare and establish resistance against whom? Against the State of Iraq, which resisted Iran for long years and then triumphed over it. So if the fitnah (trial) had stopped here only, I would have said, as I said at that time, narrating or relying on the saying of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) which came in the hadiths of fitan (trials) because if Kuwait had been able to take up arms, blood would have been wasted for no reason, because it cannot stand against Iraq. Then, when the tear widened beyond the mender’s ability and the fitnah (trial) increased and grew, as we see today, the same Arab states, and with them those who claimed to be friendly states, all these and those declare that we do not want to fight Iraq, but we want to defend Saudi Arabia if Iraq attacks it, as it attacked Kuwait. If all these states, and with them the massive European and American fleets, do not want to fight, or at least I say they pretend they do not want to fight, then what can the Kuwaitis do against Iraq? Therefore, I say to the Kuwaitis, and I told them frankly, they called me from Kuwait, from Saudi Arabia, from America, and so on, you cannot do anything. This does not mean that it is not obligatory for Muslims to defend their lands if they are attacked. No, that is not the meaning. But the meaning is that it is obligatory for those who want to fight to prepare the means, and as Allah the Exalted said this is the meaning of my speech. We know the Kuwaitis, as we know the Saudis, unfortunately, they are drowning in what? In blessings, in luxury, in extravagance, in waste, and they do not have an army to defend their lands if they are invaded. So my previous statement is now more appropriate for me to stick to, because we as individuals cannot do anything at all. And if we could do something, we could not do more than these states that gathered against Iraq, is that not so? So what is required of us is to call upon Allah the Mighty and Exalted to relieve the Muslims from these multiplied fitan (trials). We were in the fitnah (trial) of Iraq’s seizure of Kuwait, and when the disbelievers seized the lands of the Muslims, which was the Ka'bah of Islamic lands, without shedding any blood, please, as the Sufis say in some hymns, "Here is the throne, take it."

The questioner : Shaykh, there is a question, if you please. Well, my Shaykh, if America now attacks Iraq, what is the position regarding this point? Meaning, the disbelievers attacked the Muslims.

Another questioner : Will they tell you that these are not coming to remove Iraq from Kuwait? If now they say that this operation will not end until Iraq leaves Kuwait, does this change anything?

Another questioner : ... long years, and it remained, my Shaykh, until they struck.

The Shaykh : But do not hold me accountable, I will say a word that you will be upset with me for. I see that chaos has begun to pitch its tents among you, one speaks here and one here, and Ali here. Please, dinner. The answer did not precede!

The questioner : No.

The questioner : My lord, in the case of the presence of disbelieving forces in the sacred lands to strike Iraq militarily, what is the position that Muslims should take, regardless of the position of the governments?

The Shaykh : Regardless of what?

The questioner : The position of the governments.

The Shaykh : The answer is the same as the previous answer, which is and there is nothing new, no matter how many questions are asked and varied, because this question I will meet with one or more questions, andThose present : all of them are directed to them, and each answers according to what he has of knowledge or understanding or handling of the subject. This is my answer and my religious and rational conviction at the same time because you as individuals cannot do anything, nor can you come with a force to support the oppressed against the oppressor, if you have been able to determine the oppressor from the oppressed. The question now that I ask, first so that I may benefit by directing the question to myself, second so that I may benefit from the answer to the question by persuading others of what I said earlier, that we cannot do anything except to be the locks of our houses. The question is that each of you is speaking now, the answer is upon him, and we start with the doctorThe questioner : What do you imagine, Doctor, that you can do with your person? Imagine the event that you are asking about occurred, and you are asking about what our position should be regarding it, so what can you do?

The questioner : Joining the gathering that will be like me, many of whom have the readiness to fight and head to Iraq or the centers where the battles are taking place, to participate in striking American interests and the Americans.

The Shaykh : Excuse me, I want clarification from your statement "joining," because your question was regardless of the governments. Now, joining is to what? Not a government, or what?

The questioner : Shaykh, there are Islamic gatherings present in the arena.

The Shaykh : No problem, specify, take your time.

The questioner : I am saying, for example, I have a viewpoint now in the case that the Americans strike, and the Islamic gatherings, for example, the Muslim Brotherhood, sent forces, to participate with the Muslim Brotherhood in going.

The Shaykh : Is this your answer? Is there anyone from the Muslim Brotherhood present who has an answer other than this? Do you have another?

The questioner : Yes, currently, what is being put on the arena is that on Wednesday they will come out in the state of ihram to the Hijaz and sit in protest inside the Haram.

The Shaykh : This is not the answer. This is not an answer because the question concerns cooperation and fighting with those who support the truth. That is a second matter.

The questioner : Give me a moment. I have an addition.

The Shaykh : Please.

The questioner : In addition to what the doctor mentioned, and I agree with him on that, one of the issues raised before the fighting operation is a naval blockade and the starvation of the people of Iraq, meaning preventing supplies from reaching them. Now, one of the matters of resistance is depriving the disbeliever, who wants to starve the Muslim people of Iraq, of this opportunity by helping in every way, whether by smuggling materials, reducing our expenses, contributing financially, in addition to volunteering and actually going to fight, standing shoulder to shoulder with the Iraqis. The operation of helping with money and medicine, and smuggling and leaking materials in order to alleviate and break the blockade. Number three is striking American interests wherever they are found. There are now statements being issued by Islamic groups. I am not hiding the emotion that is working here. These may be Islamic groups that are not deeply rooted in the religion jurisprudentially and are not committed as they should be, but this mobilization is happening now. Consequently, there is an operation to give America a lesson. You are correct that it is the greatest power and the overwhelming power that possesses fleets, but we, as individuals and groups, can disturb the sleep of the Americans wherever they are.

The Shaykh : For example.

The questioner : For example, an Islamic gathering inside America begins to strike American facilities. In Europe, the same thing: libraries, missions, explosive attacks. In Africa, wherever America and its interests are found, they are struck. In their fleets, wherever they are. There are some pilots who will tell you about suicide bombers. I will take off in my plane... There are various types of resistance. I summarized what Usama mentioned into two points: the operation of helping with money and striking American interests wherever they are found in the world.

The Shaykh : You left the Islamic countries and spoke about the disbeliever countries and about the Muslims residing in them! Why did you distance yourself from the homeland and not speak about the Islamic countries? And we are talking here about what we can do other than joining, which the doctor mentioned?

The questioner : ... breaking the blockade.

The Shaykh : This is in terms of breaking the blockade.

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Is there something else for us here?

The questioner : We are speaking as a group.

The Shaykh : No problem. As for here, there is something else that you notice.

The questioner : These things, in addition to what Usama said. The third thing is that some of these groups have the mission of striking interests.

The Shaykh : Mr. Professor, I understand, but can this third thing be achieved in Islamic countries?

The questioner : Yes, in Islamic and non-Islamic countries.

The Shaykh : How?

The questioner : Just as is happening. There have been precedents.

The Shaykh : I mean, if I want to do this here, is it possible?

The questioner : In Jordan, it is possible. In Jordan and outside Jordan.

The Shaykh : Does the state agree to that?

The questioner : We are not bound.

The Shaykh : No, no, allow me. The issue is, whether we are bound or not, the practical result: will these operations succeed regarding the Islamic governments, or will the Islamic governments become an enemy to such movements before the disbeliever states whose interests we want to crush? I see that we are still dealing with issues with unbridled emotions that involve no thinking. Now, let us be frank. Here, for example, what is it called, an American embassy that can be struck?

The questioner : Very much.

The Shaykh : No, no, it is not possible.

The questioner : It is possible and it has happened.

The Shaykh : Allow me. I mean it is not possible in the sense that he throws a bomb and leaves. It is not possible to follow up on the matter as we imagine. This is not the treatment here. The important thing is that you presented three solutions, three means. Good. The first mean, you agreed with the doctor. The second mean, the doctor and I may agree with you. We do not contradict it at all. The third mean, which is striking the interests of the disbelievers in their own homes, is good. Which of these means has the greatest impact in deciding the matter in favor of the Muslims?

The questioner : Fighting.

The Shaykh : Fighting. So it is good that we address this great means. Now we ask: is there a people in the Islamic countries who are fighting?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : How? Yes? I am not saying an army, I am saying a people.

The questioner : A fighting people does not exist. A million and a quarter volunteers in Iraq are a people.

The Shaykh : Mr. Professor, I am not asking you about volunteers. Is there a fighting people?

The questioner : I mean, now, my understanding when you denied it, when you told me yes, it seems my understanding is not your understanding.

The Shaykh : Definitely.

The questioner : I mean the non-regular military fighter, the non-regular fighter who does not take a salary or such.

The Shaykh : And I mean this. If we meet, but do you describe this as a fighting people?

The questioner : Fighting, yes. The ones in Iraq are a fighting people.

The Shaykh : So we should define what a fighting people means to clarify this meaning, and it seems it is hidden from us. Any army, is it a fighting army or not a fighting army? Any army in the world?

The questioner : It may be fighting and it may not be fighting?

The Shaykh : May Allah reward you.

The questioner : The Kuwaiti army is not fighting.

The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. You understood, so stick to it. If you say this about armies, the same argument returns to the people. Is every people fighting? So the previous question returns: is the people fighting?

The questioner : Our people?

The Shaykh : Or what?

The questioner : But be gentle with me and do not force me.

The Shaykh : More than that, you need gentleness.

The questioner : ... everything needs a beginning. If it is not fighting, it will become fighting.

The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. By the time it ends, the group will have ended. May Allah guide us and you.

The questioner : The facts...

The Shaykh : In any case, now it seems I am taking from your words an answer that you agree with my saying or my opinion that there is no fighting people. You agree with this, but with some lengthening of the path, so to speak.

The questioner : Meaning that it is untrained. That the people are untrained, if we share this understanding.

The Shaykh : Very good. Allow me, Doctor. Allow me. We are coming now. Just now we agreed on a common word that not every army in the world is a trained army. And let us not involve ourselves in political matters. Let us define one of the Arab states. Do you think there is an Arab state that has not equipped its army and has not trained it on modern weapons at all?

The questioner : No.

The Shaykh : Nevertheless, you agree with me that it is an untrained army.

The questioner : There is an untrained army.

The Shaykh : Not fighting. Well done. You agree with me. No, no, this is not the research. The research, as Adnan said, and this is the root of our speech, the root of our speech is that it is a fighting people, a fighting army. Yes, this army which is trained and not fighting, is it not stronger than the people who are untrained and not fighting? Good. So even the untrained people becomes like the trained one. How long does it take?

The questioner : I want to tell you, and stay with me on the same line. The Afghan people, when they fought, were they fighters?

The Shaykh : Afghanistan, the people, no, they were not.

The questioner : And they became fierce fighters.

The Shaykh : But I will ask you a question.

The questioner : Let me finish. Iraq, when they entered the war with Iran, were they fighters in the sense of mastering all the modern technology they fight with now, plus the fighting capability, plus the fighting will? Was it like how they started with the Iranians themselves?

The Shaykh : There is nothing that begins and ends where its beginning is like its end.

The questioner : This is what we are pointing to now. Even the Iranians who were thrown into the battles were untrained and not fighters. They were encouraged, they believed in a certain thing. The Iranians were fighting believing that they were fighting so that they would enter Paradise. They were encouraged morally and they fought, and they were among the fiercest fighters. And so the Iraqis. If we start from here, if we keep saying we are not prepared and...

The Shaykh : No, allow me a moment. The matter is not finished. Yes, and we agree, as we said, that the one who ends is not like the one who begins. But do you not notice it takes time?

The questioner : No, it is not necessary. I do not want to talk about politics right now. I do not want to let myself get into politics now. It is well known that all the scholars of war today—truthfully, the world has become open, and everyone is offering their opinion. The prevailing belief is that the invasion of Iraq is not an easy operation. In the sense that Iraq, with this simple size that they have surrounded with all the world's fleets and America, and they do not consider it a great power, they are thinking a million times, and truly they are thinking a million times before attacking Iraq, because they know the truth that they will receive severe punishment. They may occupy Iraq, but this talk will not be a picnic, it will not be a leisurely stroll...

The Shaykh : Correct.

The questioner : As evidence, there are... fighters, weapons are present, and this country that is fighting now, which defeats shirk and disbelievers, perhaps its president does not carry [a weapon] and does not fight under the banner of "There is no god but Allah." But I have my reasons. When I fight America now, it is merely because it is present in Iraq and invading the lands of Muslims. Do we not fight? And in my mind, I am fighting the shirk and disbelief that stand with Israel to strip [us]. All the West declared it, after Russia reconciled with America and Russia exited the battle, that our coming enemy is Islam and Muslims. They declared it in the newspapers and elsewhere. I fight for this reason. When Muslims were calling for jihad, they were not trained, or one of them... now there are many effects. The boy who goes out and starts fighting from will. Then, my master, Dr. 'Isam, it is not necessary that he carries a rifle and goes to fight the guys. His specialty allows him to be in the second row and treat the patients. I may not be able to fight; I go to work as a garbage collector, I collect the garbage, I let the garbage collector go fight if he is trained. This is a type of mutual support and solidarity.

The Shaykh : You are touching on aspects where there is no disagreement that everyone works within the limits of their specialty. This is not the point of disagreement, my brother. But leave me the enthusiasm, because enthusiasm... no, no, this is a problem, this is it.

The questioner : We, within a week, were able for one of us to get trained. Now, in the popular army here in Jordan, they can train a person within a week.

The Shaykh : It means now, Abu Yahya, you do not want to enter into a research or discussion with us. It means you want to deliver an enthusiastic sermon.

The questioner : This time I want to move on.

The Shaykh : You are free, but I am drawing your attention. You speak as you wish, and I do not prevent you, but I am drawing your attention. Scientific research does not want this heat, it does not want this enthusiasm. We need to hold back and discuss the points one by one. We are now, if we do not discuss all these details, and we come here and read in the newspapers, or we learn from the newspapers, that fifteen thousand volunteered at first, then forty thousand, then eighty thousand. Let us stop at this number, eighty thousand. Do they fight a regular battle or a chaotic one? One of the two: regular or chaotic. I do not think you will say chaotic.

The questioner : No, neither this nor that.

The Shaykh : No, it will not be neither this nor that.

The questioner : No, I will answer you. Let me answer you. These who volunteer will go with a knife in their hand, meaning like that, carrying a knife and wanting to go.

The Shaykh : I am telling you, is it chaotic or regular? It has to be regular, if Allah blesses you. Why are you arguing with me now? I am telling you, either regular or chaotic. You say, "Not chaotic, not regular." May Allah bless you. This is the problem with enthusiasm: it makes a person neglect essential issues, as clear as the sun at noon. We are now agreed that these people need to fight as regulars, not chaotically. This one carries a stick, this one carries a dagger. They need, as you said, training, and it may take a long time. Good. Now I will say: these people trained, praise be to Allah, from the training they need to go fight the Americans. They need to fight with Iraq against the Americans, correct?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Do you imagine now this group, these who are not chaotic, they are regulars. Do they have a commander responsible for them, or do they not have a commander responsible for them?

The questioner : They have a commander responsible for them.

The Shaykh : Is there any problem with this point? Good. I ask you finally: do you imagine that this commander is obeyed by these eighty thousand? Is he obeyed if he orders something? Are they more obedient to him than their own fingers? Is this not an illusion, this talk?

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : I stop here. Allow me, because you know, and we gave it as an example once on the occasion of Abu Malik. Every Friday he comes and teaches the group not to precede him in saying "Ameen," and what is it? Take yourself a little and delay behind the imam in saying "Ameen." And it became years, and he could not make them line up in two rows. So how do you imagine eighty thousand, just because a commander is appointed over them? And then this has other details. Look, what is this commander's religion? What are his morals? What is his goal? Is it reaching a position, a chair, or is it jihad in the path of Allah, and so on? All these need matters for research. It is in your hand, and thank Allah for you.

The questioner : My master, no, no, I want to answer him, because how can I imagine that a million will comply and fight... hundreds of thousands will comply and fight. Likewise, these are the same thing. As long as we agreed that they have become regulars, they obey the orders of those who take charge of them. They need to obey.

The Shaykh : I have not finished my talk yet. Where am I? First, I am drawing your attention that training a very limited number, in a limited place, with faces known to each other, in a very simple matter, with no shedding of blood, and no exposure to injuries, and so on, this man was not able to put them on the right path. So it is not easy to imagine that just because eighty thousand, or less, or more—the number does not matter to us—a commander is appointed over them, he will be the wonder. You agree with my precision in expression and do not reserve. I say, "Do you imagine they will be more obedient to him than their fingers?" You say, "Yes, Allahu Akbar! Strange!"

The questioner : Because your imagination, my master, you are here, the truth... what I am describing, allow me.The Shaykh : He imagines that the eighty thousand are all...The Shaykh : He imagines that the eighty thousand are gathered in one patch, and one is plotting against them. These will be distributed, my master. They will go to units.

The Shaykh : The talk has not come yet, the talk is not done. May Allah guide you. No, allow me, because his imagination is not my imagination. I say these have a chief here, but the matter has a continuation, and it is the most difficult. Now, these eighty thousand, and the chief is over them, do they need to fight in the land of Iraq, or outside the land of Iraq?

The questioner : Where...

The Shaykh : Excuse me, what will be the reality? Is the group not going to invade Iraq?

The questioner : The reality, my master...

The Shaykh : My brother, the closest, the closest. We did not differ on what will happen; we do not know. In Kuwait, wherever it is, the important thing is this group, this army. Let us call it the Jordanian Popular Army, and it has an emir and a president. Will this fight under the banner of Iraq and its system, or a separate banner? What do you imagine?

The questioner : No, I need to tell you how the matter will be done.

The Shaykh : And I am asking you so you do not say...

The questioner : My imagination of the matter now is different from what will happen.

The Shaykh : How do you know? I am just asking you.

The questioner : And I need to tell you how volunteering is done. You, in the past, volunteered. I have experiences in Egypt when volunteering was happening, and not in Egypt, in all the lands of the world. You volunteer when you want to volunteer.

The Shaykh : What do you want, Professor? I am just asking you. May Allah reward you with good.

The questioner : I am volunteering. When I volunteer, why do I volunteer?

The Shaykh : I am not asking you that, that is not the question. May Allah be pleased with you. Haste. I am telling you, in scientific research, haste does not help. I am asking you: this army, this Jordanian people who volunteered, when they go to Iraq to help it against the Americans, do they fight the Americans under the system of Iraq, or independent of it?

The questioner : Iraq.

The Shaykh : This question, see, you are now telling me "Iraq." One word gives me Egypt, puts me in Syria. Allow me, allow me. Iraq.