Discussion of the meaning of the hadith: (Ibn 'Umar - may Allah be pleased with them both - said: 'Umar prohibited the sale of mothers of children . . . )
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The Shaykh : Upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and all his Companions. We have previously explained the ruling on the sale of mothers of children. Now we ask: who are the mothers of children? 'Isa? Who are the mothers of children?
The student: Me?
The Shaykh : No, 'Isa, your name is 'Abd Allah. 'Isa is the one on your left. Huh? Come on, 'Abd Allah?
The student: One who has given birth to her master a child in which the creation of a human being is evident.
The Shaykh : Well done. One who has given birth to her master a child in which the creation of a human being is evident. Now, what is the ruling on the sale of mothers of children, 'Ali?
The student: It is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible, but is this based on the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) or on the Sunnah of 'Umar?
The student: Based on the Sunnah of 'Umar ...
The Shaykh : Is the Sunnah of 'Umar like the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Huh?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : What is the evidence? What is the evidence?
The student: The saying of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) ...
The Shaykh : Do you agree with him?
The student: No.
Another student: ... 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, by virtue of his authority and his command ... because mothers of children were being sold, so 'Umar prohibited that. Therefore, the action of 'Umar ibn al-Khattab was in the capacity of command and authority, not ... the Sunnah.
The Shaykh : Yes, well, in that case, if the one in authority sees the benefit for the people?
The student: That he should prohibit it.
The Shaykh : That he should prohibit it. Well, is it permissible for a person to give away his mother of a child? Is it not a gift to Allah? Huh?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : He does not give her away because of the hadith. Well, Fahd, is it permissible to endow her?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Did you attend?
The student: You are present ...
The Shaykh : Is it permissible to endow her? Huh?
The student: It is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible? How is a mother of a child? Yes?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Yes, Husayn?
The student: Likewise, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : Well, is it not permissible to sell her?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Ah ... he endows her to Allah. He said, "I want to endow her to the mosque so she can sweep it."
The student: No, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible? What is the evidence?
The student: ... the endowment may be ...
The Shaykh : It may be what?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Well, a minor point, yes.
The student: ... so if he dies, she is free.
The Shaykh : No.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : No. 'Abd al-Mannan?
The student: If he endows her ... it is not permissible, and if he endows her for work, it is permissible.
The Shaykh : Yes, it is permissible. So there is a distinction?
The student: There is a distinction, yes.
The Shaykh : If he endows her so that people may have intercourse with her, that is not permissible. This is like the story of the wise man who gave his daughters in charity to men. And if he endows her to work?
The student: Then it is permissible.
The Shaykh : Yes, 'Adil?
The student: It is not permissible, Shaykh, because he said "do not give her away," and this is an example, not an exhaustive list.
The Shaykh : Yes, well done.
The student: ... the donation.
The Shaykh : Yes, it is not permissible because he said in the same report: "and do not endow her", is that right?
The student: Do not give her away.
The Shaykh : Do not give her away?
The student: And do not give her away.
The Shaykh :"She is not to be sold, nor given away, nor inherited", yes.
The student: Shaykh, whoever looks at the text says it is permissible, and whoever looks at the cause says it is not permissible ...
The Shaykh : How?
The student: I say whoever looks at the text.
The Shaykh : Which text?
The student: The text does not mention endowment ...
The Shaykh : Yes.
The student: But whoever looks at the cause says it is not permissible for him to do this, because the cause is separation, and that is achieved by endowment.
The Shaykh : Yes, separation ... ownership is not transferred in her, and endowment transfers ownership, yes, this is correct.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Yes?
The student: What is the answer, Shaykh?
The Shaykh : The answer is that this endowment is a transfer of ownership, so it is like a gift or a sale, yes.
The student: Meaning, it is not taken from the saying ...
The Shaykh : No, because it may be said that this manager, if he dies, if he dies, his freed slave is freed from the third, even though it is permissible for him to sell him.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : I mean, this is not prevented, if we say she is not free except after death ...
The student: Shaykh, 'Abd al-Mannan's statement is more correct.
The Shaykh : Yes?
The student: 'Abd al-Mannan's statement is more correct. If he endows her ... the cause is to separate her from her children ...
The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.
The student: ... it does not affect if we look at ...
The Shaykh : No, if he endows her, he removes her from his ownership, and it is not possible for him to remove her from his ownership for the causes of manumission to be established.
The student: This is not the cause, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : How so?
The student: The cause is that he separates her from the children. This is the cause.
The Shaykh : This is the original cause of the prohibition of sale, but the transfer of ownership is like a gift. A gift now, if we gave her to a person, it is the same thing.
The student: The matter is different.
The Shaykh : No, absolutely not, it is not different. Even the endowment, for example, if he wants to endow her to a mosque, she goes away from her children, and perhaps he travels and she remains in the mosque. So, we say, do not give her away, do not sell her, do not give her away, and do not transfer ownership in her at all. And 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) mentioned the contract of exchange, donation, and acquisition, or compulsory acquisition by inheritance.
The student: Me?
The Shaykh : No, 'Isa, your name is 'Abd Allah. 'Isa is the one on your left. Huh? Come on, 'Abd Allah?
The student: One who has given birth to her master a child in which the creation of a human being is evident.
The Shaykh : Well done. One who has given birth to her master a child in which the creation of a human being is evident. Now, what is the ruling on the sale of mothers of children, 'Ali?
The student: It is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible, but is this based on the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) or on the Sunnah of 'Umar?
The student: Based on the Sunnah of 'Umar ...
The Shaykh : Is the Sunnah of 'Umar like the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Huh?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : What is the evidence? What is the evidence?
The student: The saying of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) ...
The Shaykh : Do you agree with him?
The student: No.
Another student: ... 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, by virtue of his authority and his command ... because mothers of children were being sold, so 'Umar prohibited that. Therefore, the action of 'Umar ibn al-Khattab was in the capacity of command and authority, not ... the Sunnah.
The Shaykh : Yes, well, in that case, if the one in authority sees the benefit for the people?
The student: That he should prohibit it.
The Shaykh : That he should prohibit it. Well, is it permissible for a person to give away his mother of a child? Is it not a gift to Allah? Huh?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : He does not give her away because of the hadith. Well, Fahd, is it permissible to endow her?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Did you attend?
The student: You are present ...
The Shaykh : Is it permissible to endow her? Huh?
The student: It is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible? How is a mother of a child? Yes?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Yes, Husayn?
The student: Likewise, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : Well, is it not permissible to sell her?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Ah ... he endows her to Allah. He said, "I want to endow her to the mosque so she can sweep it."
The student: No, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : It is not permissible? What is the evidence?
The student: ... the endowment may be ...
The Shaykh : It may be what?
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Well, a minor point, yes.
The student: ... so if he dies, she is free.
The Shaykh : No.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : No. 'Abd al-Mannan?
The student: If he endows her ... it is not permissible, and if he endows her for work, it is permissible.
The Shaykh : Yes, it is permissible. So there is a distinction?
The student: There is a distinction, yes.
The Shaykh : If he endows her so that people may have intercourse with her, that is not permissible. This is like the story of the wise man who gave his daughters in charity to men. And if he endows her to work?
The student: Then it is permissible.
The Shaykh : Yes, 'Adil?
The student: It is not permissible, Shaykh, because he said "do not give her away," and this is an example, not an exhaustive list.
The Shaykh : Yes, well done.
The student: ... the donation.
The Shaykh : Yes, it is not permissible because he said in the same report: "and do not endow her", is that right?
The student: Do not give her away.
The Shaykh : Do not give her away?
The student: And do not give her away.
The Shaykh :"She is not to be sold, nor given away, nor inherited", yes.
The student: Shaykh, whoever looks at the text says it is permissible, and whoever looks at the cause says it is not permissible ...
The Shaykh : How?
The student: I say whoever looks at the text.
The Shaykh : Which text?
The student: The text does not mention endowment ...
The Shaykh : Yes.
The student: But whoever looks at the cause says it is not permissible for him to do this, because the cause is separation, and that is achieved by endowment.
The Shaykh : Yes, separation ... ownership is not transferred in her, and endowment transfers ownership, yes, this is correct.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : Yes?
The student: What is the answer, Shaykh?
The Shaykh : The answer is that this endowment is a transfer of ownership, so it is like a gift or a sale, yes.
The student: Meaning, it is not taken from the saying ...
The Shaykh : No, because it may be said that this manager, if he dies, if he dies, his freed slave is freed from the third, even though it is permissible for him to sell him.
The student: ...
The Shaykh : I mean, this is not prevented, if we say she is not free except after death ...
The student: Shaykh, 'Abd al-Mannan's statement is more correct.
The Shaykh : Yes?
The student: 'Abd al-Mannan's statement is more correct. If he endows her ... the cause is to separate her from her children ...
The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.
The student: ... it does not affect if we look at ...
The Shaykh : No, if he endows her, he removes her from his ownership, and it is not possible for him to remove her from his ownership for the causes of manumission to be established.
The student: This is not the cause, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : How so?
The student: The cause is that he separates her from the children. This is the cause.
The Shaykh : This is the original cause of the prohibition of sale, but the transfer of ownership is like a gift. A gift now, if we gave her to a person, it is the same thing.
The student: The matter is different.
The Shaykh : No, absolutely not, it is not different. Even the endowment, for example, if he wants to endow her to a mosque, she goes away from her children, and perhaps he travels and she remains in the mosque. So, we say, do not give her away, do not sell her, do not give her away, and do not transfer ownership in her at all. And 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) mentioned the contract of exchange, donation, and acquisition, or compulsory acquisition by inheritance.