Explanation of the author's statement: And in al-Bukhari, from Qatadah: (I said to Ibn al-Musayyib: A man has a condition, or is prevented from his wife; is it permissible to remove it or untie it?)
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The Shaykh : He said: And in al-Bukhari, from Aisha
The student: Qatadah
The Shaykh : From Qatadah, yes. "And in al-Bukhari, from Qatadah:" Or Ibn al-Musayyib, which one? Both are permissible. It was said that he cursed the one who said al-Musayyab, because al-Musayyab is the one who is left behind, and al-Musayyib is the one who leaves, so there is a difference between them. "A man has a condition" meaning Ibn al-Musayyib was asked; Qatadah asked him. "A man has a condition" meaning sorcery. The condition is sorcery, and it is known that a condition is the treatment of the sick, so why was sorcery called a condition? They said it is from the category of optimism, just as they called the one bitten by a snake "the healthy one" and the one with a broken bone "the mender," and they said one wipes over the splint. So this is from the category of optimism. "Or is prevented from his wife" Prevented from his wife means he is kept away from her. And what does kept away mean? It means he does not reach intercourse with her. It is not harmful in itself, but when he wants his family, he does not reach intercourse with her. This is also a type of sorcery; it contains a type of sorcery, and I seek refuge in Allah. It makes it so that a man does not reach intercourse with his family, even if he is healthy in other matters, but with these, this does not happen. This is a type of sorcery. And the strange thing is that it is widespread among people that if there is a knot and someone ties any knot, this happens, even if he is not a sorcerer. Yes, and some went so far as to say that if he interlaces his fingers when tying a knot, the husband is kept away from his family. But I do not know any basis for this.
The questioner : What if it is without intention?
The Shaykh : What if it is without intention? But I do not know any basis for this, and the truth is that interlacing should be the opposite.
The student: Tying
The Shaykh : ... Tying between them, between the husband and the wife, the opposite of this. But it often happens, and we are asked about this issue, and they seek treatment. Some scholars have mentioned that one of the treatments is to divorce her. If he divorces her and then takes her back, the issue is resolved. I do not know if this is valid or not. But if it is valid, then divorce here is permissible. Is it permissible or not? It is permissible because it is a divorce for the sake of keeping her. In reality, he divorces as a treatment, but I do not know about the validity of this. For this reason, we do not issue a ruling to them on this matter. I say, by Allah, we do not know anything about this. And if you are told something...
The questioner : ... that it does not become a cause without evidence.
The Shaykh : If it is tried, because evidence can be through trials and through texts. For this reason, all the medicines discovered recently are through trials.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : This is perhaps.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Do you mean from the side of those who do sorcery? They believe that this is like the blowers in knots. For this reason, they say... here.
The student: This story happened.
The Shaykh : What happened?
The student: My father, may Allah have mercy on him, told me that a man married, and it was said that this man is somewhat wealthy, but this man had nothing, meaning he had nothing.
The Shaykh : Which one?
The student: This poor man had nothing... he was not married
The Shaykh : He had no money
The student: He had no money. A woman said to him, you want money, wait... she put it in... He said that he did what this woman told him, so the man went to his family at night and found nothing...
The Shaykh : Perhaps she is a sorceress.
The student: These are superstitions, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : In any case, if his statement: means he is kept away due to sorcery.
The student: It would be minor shirk, they tie a knot.
The Shaykh : If it is sorcery, it is effective without a doubt. For this reason, Allah commanded seeking refuge from the blowers in knots.
The questioner : But the cause is not in the Shari'ah, nor in...
The Shaykh : Nor in reality, in the matter of marriage.
The questioner : How does it reach, O Shaykh? If, for example, it is a treatment that is eaten, may Allah reward you with good?
The Shaykh : Do not say how it reaches, because the evil eye also, this evil eye has an effect.
The student: The evil eye is mentioned in the Shari'ah.
The Shaykh : Even these blowers in knots, if the knot is made by a sorcerer, the matter is mentioned as being effective, as Allah said:[Al-Falaq 113:4] And this is by the assistance of the devils to cool his desire when he wants his family.
The student: ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, I do.
The student: But here only a knot was provided.
The Shaykh : Perhaps they blow; they may blow or not. In any case, it is like this among people. For this reason, we do not know about it. And I do not say it as a confirmation of it, but I say it as a report from people. I also do not say that a person should fear this matter. It is not necessary to fear, yes.
The student: They tie it.
The Shaykh : No, no, they do not tie it, if Allah wills.
The student: Regarding...
The Shaykh : How?
The student: ... if the husband comes wanting to have intercourse with the wife...
The Shaykh : I seek refuge in Allah. In any case, sorcery and its methods, we do not know about them. It has methods that are not known; they may be hidden methods, and I seek refuge in Allah.
The student: ... .
The Shaykh : Let us see now.
The student: ... It is widespread among people that only the specific ones attend the knot.
The Shaykh : It appears that they fear this.
The student: ... .
The Shaykh : We do not prohibit it because we fear that it has a reality, and praise be to Allah. This is from the category of a person being cautious of causes. Then he says: "Or is prevented from his wife" A man has a condition, meaning sorcery. "Or is prevented from his wife" The "or" here is for doubt, meaning I said he is prevented. It is possible that it is for variety, meaning I asked him about both matters: about the one who is bewitched and about the one who is prevented from his wife. He said: "Is it removed from him or untied?" This is undoubtedly in the way of doubt, because removing is untie, as we said that untie is removing the sorcery from the bewitched one. He said: "There is no harm in it; they only intend by it to make things right" So Ibn al-Musayyib, may Allah have mercy on him, says: "There is no harm in removing it from him" And he gave the reason.
[Al-Baqarah 2:102] And that what is beneficial from it is not harmful. This is the apparent meaning of what was narrated from him, and our jurists, may Allah have mercy on them, took this apparent meaning and said that it is permissible to remove sorcery with sorcery out of necessity, so they permitted that. And some people of knowledge said: It is not permissible to remove sorcery with sorcery. They interpreted what was narrated from Ibn al-Musayyib or al-Musayyib as meaning what is not known about its state, whether it is sorcery or not. As for if it is known, it is not permissible. And without a doubt, this is an interpretation of Ibn al-Musayyib's words to a meaning that may be what was intended, and it may be that something else was intended, and that he, may Allah have mercy on him, sees it as permissible. But in any case, even if Ibn al-Musayyib and those above Ibn al-Musayyib, from those whose words are not a proof, see it as permissible, does that mean it is permissible in the ruling of Allah? Or until it is presented to the Book and the Sunnah? Until it is presented to the Book and the Sunnah. And you have heard that the Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, was asked about untie and he said: Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 13:100 And there is no wonder or surprise that one of the Tabi'un or even one of the Companions errs in a matter and is thereby excused. So now, according to the opinion of these people, removing sorcery is in three categories:
A category where we know it is by sorcery, so it is forbidden. A category where we know it is by a permissible medicine or supplications or Qur'an, so it is permissible and lawful. And a category where we do not know if it is by this or that. They interpreted Ibn al-Musayyib's words as applying to this type where it is not known whether it is from the permissible or from the forbidden. They said: As long as it is beneficial and we are in doubt about its entry into the forbidden, the doubt is lifted from us, because the legal rule is: "That what is not clear in its matter, necessity permits it" The thing where the texts are not clear, necessity permits it. Meaning, the one whose avoidance is from the category of scrupulousness, necessity permits it due to the lack of certainty of prohibition.
The questioner : Shaykh.
The Shaykh : Yes
The questioner : But this is where we do not know its ruling, meaning we know its matter and then we do not know the ruling. But this is where we do not know the matter, the apparent matter. And the original rule is the prohibition of going to the sorcerer.
The Shaykh : They interpret Ibn al-Musayyib's words as applying to this.
The questioner : But what is said, O Shaykh, in the answer regarding Ibn al-Musayyib? It is said: A sorcerer is forbidden in principle; the prohibition is entering him and seeking treatment from him.
The Shaykh : No, we are in doubt now. If we know it is by sorcery, it is forbidden. Yes, the apparent meaning of Ibn al-Musayyib's words is permissibility, as is the school of thought.
The student: The apparent... from the work of Satan, that no sorcerer can remove it except a sorcerer, as al-Hasan said. The apparent is the prohibition of it, except if we know.
The Shaykh : If we know what?
The questioner : If we know that he removes it.
The Shaykh : This, this. I said that these people answered Ibn al-Musayyib's words with this answer and said that it is interpreted as doubt. Otherwise, what we know to be sorcery is definitely forbidden.
The questioner : What carries the statement of Ibn al-Musayyib (may Allah have mercy on him) is that he…
The Shaykh : Then comes the statement of Ibn al-Qayyim regarding the interpretation of Ibn al-Musayyib’s words; he did not interpret them this way, but the commentator did. The commentator, the author of *Taysir al-Aziz al-Hamid*, is the one who interpreted them this way, as if Ibn al-Musayyib (may Allah have mercy on him) meant the doubtful matter.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : How?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : He does not say this is an explanation of its reality, meaning that it is Satan who commands it, so it is of his doing.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, if it is by the way of sorcery, it is effective.
The student: Qatadah
The Shaykh : From Qatadah, yes. "And in al-Bukhari, from Qatadah:
I said to Ibn al-Musayyib
قلت لابن المسيَّبThe questioner : What if it is without intention?
The Shaykh : What if it is without intention? But I do not know any basis for this, and the truth is that interlacing should be the opposite.
The student: Tying
The Shaykh : ... Tying between them, between the husband and the wife, the opposite of this. But it often happens, and we are asked about this issue, and they seek treatment. Some scholars have mentioned that one of the treatments is to divorce her. If he divorces her and then takes her back, the issue is resolved. I do not know if this is valid or not. But if it is valid, then divorce here is permissible. Is it permissible or not? It is permissible because it is a divorce for the sake of keeping her. In reality, he divorces as a treatment, but I do not know about the validity of this. For this reason, we do not issue a ruling to them on this matter. I say, by Allah, we do not know anything about this. And if you are told something...
The questioner : ... that it does not become a cause without evidence.
The Shaykh : If it is tried, because evidence can be through trials and through texts. For this reason, all the medicines discovered recently are through trials.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : This is perhaps.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Do you mean from the side of those who do sorcery? They believe that this is like the blowers in knots. For this reason, they say... here.
The student: This story happened.
The Shaykh : What happened?
The student: My father, may Allah have mercy on him, told me that a man married, and it was said that this man is somewhat wealthy, but this man had nothing, meaning he had nothing.
The Shaykh : Which one?
The student: This poor man had nothing... he was not married
The Shaykh : He had no money
The student: He had no money. A woman said to him, you want money, wait... she put it in... He said that he did what this woman told him, so the man went to his family at night and found nothing...
The Shaykh : Perhaps she is a sorceress.
The student: These are superstitions, O Shaykh.
The Shaykh : In any case, if his statement:
He is taken from his wife
يؤخذ عن امرأتهThe student: It would be minor shirk, they tie a knot.
The Shaykh : If it is sorcery, it is effective without a doubt. For this reason, Allah commanded seeking refuge from the blowers in knots.
The questioner : But the cause is not in the Shari'ah, nor in...
The Shaykh : Nor in reality, in the matter of marriage.
The questioner : How does it reach, O Shaykh? If, for example, it is a treatment that is eaten, may Allah reward you with good?
The Shaykh : Do not say how it reaches, because the evil eye also, this evil eye has an effect.
The student: The evil eye is mentioned in the Shari'ah.
The Shaykh : Even these blowers in knots, if the knot is made by a sorcerer, the matter is mentioned as being effective, as Allah said:
And from the evil of the blowers in knots
من شر النفاثات في العقدThe student: ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, I do.
The student: But here only a knot was provided.
The Shaykh : Perhaps they blow; they may blow or not. In any case, it is like this among people. For this reason, we do not know about it. And I do not say it as a confirmation of it, but I say it as a report from people. I also do not say that a person should fear this matter. It is not necessary to fear, yes.
The student: They tie it.
The Shaykh : No, no, they do not tie it, if Allah wills.
The student: Regarding...
The Shaykh : How?
The student: ... if the husband comes wanting to have intercourse with the wife...
The Shaykh : I seek refuge in Allah. In any case, sorcery and its methods, we do not know about them. It has methods that are not known; they may be hidden methods, and I seek refuge in Allah.
The student: ... .
The Shaykh : Let us see now.
The student: ... It is widespread among people that only the specific ones attend the knot.
The Shaykh : It appears that they fear this.
The student: ... .
The Shaykh : We do not prohibit it because we fear that it has a reality, and praise be to Allah. This is from the category of a person being cautious of causes. Then he says: "Or is prevented from his wife" A man has a condition, meaning sorcery. "Or is prevented from his wife" The "or" here is for doubt, meaning I said he is prevented. It is possible that it is for variety, meaning I asked him about both matters: about the one who is bewitched and about the one who is prevented from his wife. He said: "Is it removed from him or untied?" This is undoubtedly in the way of doubt, because removing is untie, as we said that untie is removing the sorcery from the bewitched one. He said: "There is no harm in it; they only intend by it to make things right" So Ibn al-Musayyib, may Allah have mercy on him, says: "There is no harm in removing it from him" And he gave the reason.
And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them
فيتعلمون ما يضرهم ولا ينفعهمIt is from the work of Satan
هي من عمل الشيطانA category where we know it is by sorcery, so it is forbidden. A category where we know it is by a permissible medicine or supplications or Qur'an, so it is permissible and lawful. And a category where we do not know if it is by this or that. They interpreted Ibn al-Musayyib's words as applying to this type where it is not known whether it is from the permissible or from the forbidden. They said: As long as it is beneficial and we are in doubt about its entry into the forbidden, the doubt is lifted from us, because the legal rule is: "That what is not clear in its matter, necessity permits it" The thing where the texts are not clear, necessity permits it. Meaning, the one whose avoidance is from the category of scrupulousness, necessity permits it due to the lack of certainty of prohibition.
The questioner : Shaykh.
The Shaykh : Yes
The questioner : But this is where we do not know its ruling, meaning we know its matter and then we do not know the ruling. But this is where we do not know the matter, the apparent matter. And the original rule is the prohibition of going to the sorcerer.
The Shaykh : They interpret Ibn al-Musayyib's words as applying to this.
The questioner : But what is said, O Shaykh, in the answer regarding Ibn al-Musayyib? It is said: A sorcerer is forbidden in principle; the prohibition is entering him and seeking treatment from him.
The Shaykh : No, we are in doubt now. If we know it is by sorcery, it is forbidden. Yes, the apparent meaning of Ibn al-Musayyib's words is permissibility, as is the school of thought.
The student: The apparent... from the work of Satan, that no sorcerer can remove it except a sorcerer, as al-Hasan said. The apparent is the prohibition of it, except if we know.
The Shaykh : If we know what?
The questioner : If we know that he removes it.
The Shaykh : This, this. I said that these people answered Ibn al-Musayyib's words with this answer and said that it is interpreted as doubt. Otherwise, what we know to be sorcery is definitely forbidden.
The questioner : What carries the statement of Ibn al-Musayyib (may Allah have mercy on him) is that he…
The Shaykh : Then comes the statement of Ibn al-Qayyim regarding the interpretation of Ibn al-Musayyib’s words; he did not interpret them this way, but the commentator did. The commentator, the author of *Taysir al-Aziz al-Hamid*, is the one who interpreted them this way, as if Ibn al-Musayyib (may Allah have mercy on him) meant the doubtful matter.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : How?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : He does not say this is an explanation of its reality, meaning that it is Satan who commands it, so it is of his doing.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, if it is by the way of sorcery, it is effective.