Discussion on distinguishing between the righteous and the wicked jinn, and on the ruling regarding speaking with the jinn and using beating in the treatment of the possessed

The Shaykh : It is permissible to seek the help of the believing jinn.
The student : I do not adopt this view, my Shaykh, and yet I do not adopt it.

The Shaykh : You rushed me. How can one know the righteous jinn from the wicked one?
The student : It is possible, my Shaykh, to know that through the behavior of the possessed person; it does not prevent him from praying in congregation.
Another student: The possessed person has a behavior.
The student: Of course.
Another student: Do you know what the possessed person is?
The student : The possessed one.
Another student: Do you know what the possessed person is in Egypt? When an Egyptian curses another, he says to him, "O son of the possessed."
Another student: By Allah, this is new knowledge, it is not like that, my brother.
Another student: Yes, indeed.
Another student: I do not know this.
Another student: And therefore, this possessed one is different from the others.
The student : The possessed one, through the behavior of the possessed person, my Shaykh, and through experience and expertise. And experience and expertise, my Shaykh, give a person a skill, like the hadith scholars in the causes of hadith.
Another student: What Allah willed.

The Shaykh : May Allah guide us and you.
The student : And not the comparison.

The Shaykh : We test a person for years, and then he turns out to be a failure.
The student : May Allah keep us firm, O Lord.
Another student: But, my Shaykh, one righteous person may turn out to be two or three.

The Shaykh: Allahu Akbar.
The student : And he may not turn out to be.
Another student: My Shaykh, the one who has a jinn possessing him, meaning there is some righteousness in him, does not prevent him from praying in congregation, does not prevent him from reciting the Qur'an. If you recite the Qur'an to him, he cries and repents and responds to the warning and the prohibition, and he comes out immediately, especially when you tell him that this is an injustice and it is forbidden.
Another student: But this is if the matter is so, he does not possess. But if it is...

The Shaykh : O Allah, feed the one who fed me.
The student : Health and well-being, my Shaykh. May Allah preserve you, O my Shaykh, may your days always be all joy.
Another student: And yet, in order to close this door, I do not adopt this opinion, meaning I warn against it, because as you have mentioned, what makes us know this? It is the unseen, we do not know it, and the original state of the jinn is ignorance, foolishness, and recklessness, so closing this door is better.

The Shaykh : But you, Abu Anas, are now saying about yourself that what we know to be righteous is that it does not prevent him from prayer, for example. This requires, in my understanding, that this jinn is still possessing this human, meaning he does not respond to you. So how do you then rule that he is righteous and that he responds?
The student : Mostly, my Shaykh, he responds, unless he is bewitched and tied to the body.

The Shaykh : No problem, meaning here there are two possibilities: either he responded, in which case you cannot know him, or he did not respond, in which case how can it be said that he is righteous?
The student : Perhaps, my Shaykh, I know him.

The Shaykh : Huh?
The student : Perhaps I know him when, for example, I warn him or prohibit him, and he cries intensely and promises to come out, saying that I was deceived or something like that, and indeed the behavior of the afflicted person changes. For example, I say to him: Fear Allah, do not harm him; if you cannot come out, it is because he is tied by magic, my Shaykh, so I say to him: Then fear Allah, do not harm him, and indeed the condition of the afflicted person changes and improves.

The Shaykh : Who is tied by magic? The jinn?
The student : Yes, my Shaykh. The sorcerers tie him to the body, they imprison him so he cannot come out.
Another student: It requires faith, this, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : How is that? How is it possible?
The student : By Allah, my Shaykh, this is because I am not a sorcerer and I have not dealt with them, but the sorcerers know this, my Shaykh, they have methods, my Shaykh, so the one who reads the books of magic knows how they tie the jinn, but I, praise be to Allah, have not looked at the books of magic, even though it is for the purpose of refuting magic, I have not looked at them, because I am content with the Qur'an and the command and prohibition and warning, and my Shaykh, I am still... once I said to you, may Allah bless you, that you want to sit in a session where I read in front of you and this afflicted person speaks with the jinn on his tongue, so that you can see and observe what is correct and what is wrong, so that we can benefit from you, if Allah wills.

The Shaykh : Yes... may Allah bless you, but when the jinn speaks on the tongue of the possessed person, do you sit and give and take with him?
The student: All right.

The Shaykh : Is this addressing, meaning, from the Sunnah?
The student : My Shaykh, this addressing is a requirement of the extraction, for example, when I speak...
Another student: Meaning, like arranging the references is a requirement of the extraction.
Another student: Not the extraction, the production.
Another student: The production, may Allah bless you. My Shaykh, when I say to him, are you a Muslim or a disbeliever, what is in this?

The Shaykh : Fine, he told you, I am a Muslim.
The student : Fine. I say to him, the Muslim.

The Shaykh : Be patient.
The student: All right.

The Shaykh : Is it permissible for him to be a hypocrite or not?
The student : It is permissible.

The Shaykh : If the human is being hypocritical with us.
The student : My Shaykh, when he says to me, I am a Muslim, I say to him: , the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, and this your action is inconsistent with your Islam, so in order to be a Muslim, you must come out of him and leave him, and cease the injustice from him.

The Shaykh : Suppose a Muslim neighbor from the humans harms his Muslim neighbor, and you direct this speech to him, and then he does not stop.
The student : Excuse me to your Lord.

The Shaykh : I mean.
The student : I read to him until...

The Shaykh : Meaning, what did you then rule about this neighbor, that he is a righteous Muslim or a wicked one?
The student : A Muslim with his tongue.

The Shaykh : Fine, so then, how can we rule, my brother, about this jinn who possesses this human, you speak to him the first time and the second time, and as you explained, he is bewitched, so he cannot come out, this explanation is a justification for your saying that this man is a righteous Muslim but he cannot come out because he is bewitched, so he is a jinn. Things...
The student : It is not the bewitched one, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : The jinn, the jinn.
The student : The bewitched human, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Yes?
The student : The bewitched human, because the sorcerers use...

The Shaykh : I asked you, the jinn, why do you say about him that he is righteous and you warn him and remind him, and he does not come out?
The student : Because he is tied, my Shaykh.
Another student: This is speech...The Shaykh .

The Shaykh : Do you see, we are saying to him because the pronoun, I understood it, you return it to the jinn, it is not for the human.
The student : No, my Shaykh, it is for the human.
Another student: This is the pronoun of the bewitched one, but the tied one is the jinn.
Another student: The tied jinn.
Another student: This is a question, my Shaykh, about the jinn. So the jinn is tied in the body of the possessed human.
Another student: Yes.
Another student: This is it.
Another student: Does every magic require the tying of the jinn in it?

The Shaykh : That is it.
The student : Not all of it.

The Shaykh : Here is the problem.
The student : Not all of it, but one of the most difficult types of magic is that it is accompanied by tying, so you read to him, you read to him, you read to him, and he remains, and sometimes it is fed, the food that they feed the bewitched one remains stuck in his stomach, so it does not come out except by removing it.

The Shaykh : My brother, your saying, may Allah bless you, O Abu Anas, religion is advice, when you explain a matter of the unseen, what is this matter of the unseen? A jinn possessing a human, and you claim that he is a righteous Muslim but he cannot come out because he is tied by the sorcerers, this is a matter of the unseen, what makes you know that the matter is so?
The student : He says this.

The Shaykh : Fine, suppose.
The student : But I do not believe him, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Do you believe an unknown person?
The student : No, I do not believe an unknown person, but my Shaykh, through experience, when I treat hundreds of cases, I develop a skill, I know the truthful from the liar.

The Shaykh : Meaning, you have a taste.
The student : My Shaykh, whoever has tasted knows.
Another student: I develop a skill, Abu al-Harith, make Allah one.
Another student: By Allah, tell us the story of the duck, O Abu Anas?
Another student: A Hindu looked at a small girl and afflicted her with the evil eye, so she became pale and thin.
Another student: This was when you were in...?
Another student: And I was in Bahrain. So the girl, while sitting, a duck's voice was heard from her stomach, quack quack quack, so they brought her to me, and I treated her, praise be to Allah, and the duck went away.
Another student: The duck flew away.
Another student: Praise be to Allah.
Another student: This is the story of the duck, my Shaykh.
Another student: And the story of another woman, we read to her and she flew among our hands. By Allah, she flew among our hands, and six of us held her down to the ground, like the carpet of the wind, and we were reading the Qur'an to her.

The Shaykh : Meaning, when you now say she flew, in my opinion, there is an exaggeration in the expression.
The student : Not at all, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Be patient a little.
The student : She was flown, she was flown, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : No problem. No, I wonder, if I said she rose, is that more accurate, or she flew?
The student : By Allah, my Shaykh, she flew. By Allah, my Shaykh, she flew, and we almost went mad, meaning.
Another student: The news is not like the witnessing.
Another student: We almost lost our minds, my Shaykh, when we saw this scene. And there are people...

The Shaykh : What is the difference between “flew” and “rose”?
The student : “Flew” means it had wings, Abu...
Another student: Is it necessary? Does it have to have wings?
Another student: I mean, our Shaykh’s expression.
Another student: It swam in the air.
Another student: No, it did not swim.
Another student: It needs fins.
Another student: It needs water.

The Shaykh : I mean, for example, my brother, you saw it, but we did not see it as it was, for example, standing upright.
The student : No, it was stretched out, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : It was stretched out, and then it flew.
The student : ...

The Shaykh : Be patient, it flew while it was stretched out.
The student : And it was stretched out, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : So it rose.
The student : It rose. Do you know why, Shaykh, I said “flew”?

The Shaykh : Why?
The student : Because it did not rise and stay there; it went back and forth, and it wanted to get out of the window, Shaykh. Seven men were needed when we pinned it to the bed.

The Shaykh : This supports that it did not fly, but rather it rose and was lifted up, as Abu Malik said.
The student : My master, there is no dispute over terminology.

The Shaykh : I mean, the jinn snatched it.
The student : Yes, the one inside, Shaykh, was a jinn of the flying type. It wanted to take her and fly with her.
Another student: He gave you the details in a tedious way.

The Shaykh : In any case, Abu Anas, by Allah, we want good for every Muslim, especially our good brothers, and those who are pointed to with the finger. We do not see it for you to engage in anything more than reciting the Qur'an.
The student : ... Shaykh?

The Shaykh : By Allah, I do not know. The news seems to be about something more than reciting the Qur'an.
The student : By Allah, Shaykh, I am at your disposal. So you clarify for me and confirm for me. And the only defect in news is its narrators.
Another student: This is what our Shaykh began his speech with.

The Shaykh : Yes, I said this.
The student : So, Shaykh, I do not engage in anything but reading the Qur'an. And if the jinn speaks and screams, I say to it: Fear Allah, this is oppression, and oppression will be darkness on the Day of Resurrection, and your dwellings are not in the bodies of Muslims. Get out, enemy of Allah, I am a servant of Allah, that is all. Sometimes it does not listen, and I may be forced to hit it. And hitting is established, Shaykh. Abu Hurayrah said: So they treated them. You, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Is this an argument for you or against you?
The student : Shaykh, no, it is an argument for me.

The Shaykh : Why?
The student : You commented in *Riyad al-Saliheen* under: “And this was their method of treating such cases.”

The Shaykh : But here it says: “There was no jinn in him.”
The student : Because they thought there was a jinn in him.

The Shaykh : Their thought, yes, but the reality is that there was none.
The student : Never mind, the reality, Shaykh, is in itself, but they were treating possession this way by stepping on his neck. Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) mentioned this, that he would hit the afflicted person on the side of his neck here with a thick stick.

The Shaykh : Did you hear the story published in some newspapers that they killed a boy?
The student : On the radio, they published it more than once.
Another student: Who killed the boy?
Another student: An Egyptian.

The Shaykh : One of these people.
The student : Shaykh, it is recklessness, I mean. The expansion, Shaykh, they use electricity, of course. When they use 220 volts of electricity, they may kill.
Another student: Abu Anas chokes him.

The Shaykh : Yes?
The student : Abu Anas chokes him like this, he holds him, but of course not to the point of the soul leaving, no, before the soul leaves.
Another student: I mean, this is the method by which I discover the possessed.
Another student: I mean, when it reaches the throat, it stops.
Another student: No, it is not, Shaykh. If it is tangible, immediately with wood, and it starts to snore, and the condition becomes clear.
Another student: By experience, of course, I mean academic.
Another student: You know that now, in this issue of expansion that you referred to, there is something strange in Saudi Arabia.
Another student: Shaykh, by Allah, I hope to be sincere.
Another student : ...
Another student: By Allah, if...

The Shaykh : We are all with you in this hope.
The student : But, Shaykh, they go to the fortune-tellers, the soothsayers, and the diviners.

The Shaykh : What do you have to do with them, my brother? May Allah guide you?!
The student : Shaykh, we always tell him that.

The Shaykh : Look after yourselves.
The student : I mean, I do not treat. I want to put it on your neck and be done with it. I want a fatwa from you. I do not treat and I close this door, that is all?

The Shaykh : No, we do not say do not treat. Do not go beyond reciting the Qur'an.
The student : And I do not end it and I do not command?

The Shaykh : Do not talk to the jinn.
The student : Never?

The Shaykh : No.
The student : Not even a word of good?

The Shaykh : Only what is established in the hadith.
The student : .

The Shaykh : But.
The student : Shaykh, since it is permissible to talk, Shaykh, I mean.
Another student: I will talk to it a little.
Another student: I will talk to it a little. Since it is permissible, I will talk to it: Command.

The Shaykh : ... .
The student : If it is permissible.
Another student: You sought the professor's advice, and he advised you. May Allah guide you.
Another student: My master, it is on my head. By Allah, my professor, and it is on my head.

The Shaykh : This is what I have, my brother. May Allah bless you. We want to hear Abu Malik start speaking about something.
The student : In Saudi Arabia, a brother from among our brothers said, what are they doing now in Saudi Arabia in this issue of expanding treatment? They started, for example, bringing seals and printing verses and hadiths on the seal, and bringing saffron, and putting saffron on it, covering it with saffron, then making the seals on paper, and every case has a specific seal, and the patient comes and says, take it, and he gives him a paper.

The Shaykh : The sealed paper?
The student : The sealed paper. Look how the expansion has become?! And then there is something else that Rayan showed me, may Allah make it easy for him. He said: There is a device to measure pressure.

The Shaykh : Ah.
The student : A device. This is what he showed me. It is a tube, and then you put it on a vein.

The Shaykh : It measures pressure.
The student : So it gives vibrations and hurts, I mean there is slight pain. So the device emits vibrations while it is placed on this vein, and then the device makes a sound. So now they bring these devices, some of the people, and use them in this method of treatment. He tells you. Yes, by Allah.
Another student: How does this work?
The student : I mean, he did not show me its method, but how does it dominate...
Another student: Shaykh, one person told me that they make a mixture from camel meat, and he said that it kills the jinn in the body. And he tells you that they derived this from hadiths that camels were created from shayatin, and that on the hump of every camel is a shaytan. So he said these hadiths are related to this matter, and he said that it harms the jinn.

The Shaykh : This is from the virtues of connecting with the jinn.
The student: Glory be to Allah!

The Shaykh : New fiqh.
The student : This is amazing. Is this in Saudi Arabia?
Another student: By Allah, I heard from some Egyptians, I mean. The Egyptians' expansion, my brother, is amazing. The Egyptians have become specialized in this subject.