The Debate on the Statement of Allah the Exalted: “And if you were to ask them, they would surely say, ‘We were only talking and playing.’ Say, ‘Do you mock Allah and His verses and His Messenger?”
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The questioner : His saying—Exalted is He—“I seek refuge in Allah, the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing, from Shaytan the Rakeeb,” in the verse [At-Tawbah 9:65-66], even though the occasion of revelation is as follows, meaning: “They came, and when they spoke, they said, ‘We have not seen reciters like our reciters, with greedier bellies, more lying tongues, or more cowardly in battle’”—or as they said. Then one of the Companions reported this, and Jibril preceded that Companion with these verses. The one who was speaking said, meaning: “O Messenger of Allah, we were speaking in the manner of one who speaks to break the journey, and we did not mean, or rather, we did not say what we said in jest, talk, or play. We did not intend, nor did we believe in what we said; we only said it this way, not in mockery or ridicule, but as a form of relief in our language.” So the verses came down: [At-Tawbah 9:66]. This is an example of people who mocked, and they knew that it was not mockery, and even though it is forbidden, it does not take them out of faith.
The Shaykh : How did they mock if it was not mockery?
The questioner : They did not mock, and they thought that this was a conversation in which a traveler breaks the distance, but this is not what they thought, as Allah—Mighty and Majestic—said, that it was mockery of the verses of Allah. They did not know that this was mockery of the verses of Allah and of His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and of the believers, even though the verse is:[Ali 'Imran 3:106], and they did not believe, meaning that in a narration... they say, “O Messenger of Allah, we said this speech and did not mean to mock; we only said it in talk and play.”
The Shaykh : And what is the context of the verse?
The questioner :[At-Tawbah 9:65] .
The Shaykh : The verse indicates that they were mocking.
The questioner : ...Allah—Mighty and Majestic—, as for the one who did this act, he says: “I did not intend mockery, nor did I do it deliberately.”
The Shaykh : So who is more truthful in speech than Allah?
The questioner : So who is more truthful in speech than Allah? This is, of course, in the apparent sense, the ruling of Allah regarding his disbelief due to his mockery.
The Shaykh : Okay, but you... regarding the mockery, you are saying they mocked, and then you say they were not mocking.
The questioner : They did not think so; they say, “We...”
The student : Do you have the book, my brother Muhammad, the book of Tawhid?
The Shaykh : No problem, if you think that what you are narrating is like this.
The questioner : It is correct.
The Shaykh : There is no need for the book.
The questioner : Yes, as for them, they do not say it was mockery; they deny being mockers and talkers, but Allah affirmed that by this act they mocked and thus became disbelievers.
The Shaykh : So bring me the narration if you wish, because I see a contradiction in your explanation.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The student : In Kashf al-Shubuhat (Unveiling the Doubts).
The Shaykh : Sugar, Professor... the tape does not go to waste so that the brothers can read the text.
The Shaykh : Let us hear the text, please.
The questioner : It refers to the previous one, but it is brief here, and this great issue becomes clear to you when you reflect on the words of people.
The Shaykh : Excuse me... the narration, Professor, we do not want the words of people... what is its text?
The questioner : Yes, he referred to the previous one only.
The Shaykh : You rule that they were mocking, so is this report true and not open to interpretation?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Okay, is mockery an act separate from the heart, or is it heart and act?
The questioner : In the apparent sense, it is an act separate from the heart by their words, as they thought.
The Shaykh: Oh, teacher.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Glory be to Allah, I am asking you about the ruling of the Lord of the Worlds, so let me be.
The questioner : Yes, the ruling of the Lord of the Worlds is that they became disbelievers because they mocked.
The Shaykh : So I ask you.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Do not tell me they mean such and such; that is their interpretation. We are now asking whether mockery is only an act or also a heart act. How do you imagine a person mocking another in his heart while praising him, and mocking him in his speech? How do you imagine this?
The questioner : By Allah, I can imagine it, imagining those people, but no...
The Shaykh : May Allah guide you, may Allah guide me and you, O Allah, guide us all.
The questioner : O Allah, amen.
The Shaykh : Let me be, I am asking you, how do you imagine a man mocking another but praising him in his heart?
The questioner : You do not imagine it, but it happened that they said, “We did not mean this, we did not intend this, we were not...”
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : After this, if Allah wills...
The Shaykh : Did you find the narration?
The questioner : ...the narration refers to it.
The Shaykh : We want the narration, Professor.
The questioner : Words, words.
The Shaykh : Not the words of the author.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : The narration the Professor is talking about.
The student : There is no narration.
The questioner : No, there is a narration in the index under “Mockery.”
Another questioner : We are asking about the people for whom these verses were revealed; were they not for a group of hypocrites, and it is known that the hypocrite displays what he does not...
The Shaykh : Coming, coming, Professor, the narration reveals the whole truth after the word of Allah, there is no speech, please proceed.
The student : Even if they denied the whole narration and said, “We did not mock, nor did we say it,” and lied to the Companions...
The Shaykh : What am I saying to him? Allah says so.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : ...the predecessors say so.
The student : ...we apply it to the ruler.
The Shaykh : But.
The questioner : So now this.
The student : Yes, exactly... exactly it works in it...
The questioner : No, because of the narration he narrated more than once; since Allah did not confirm for these people what they said...
The Shaykh : Because they are truthful or liars?
The questioner : Because they are liars.
The Shaykh : Glory be to Allah, so how do you use this verse as evidence for an act that is apostasy while the heart is believing? How do you use this as evidence?
The questioner : Because in reality, most people are like the polytheists or the rulers who rule by other than what Allah has revealed; they say to you, “My creed is not tainted by any flaw, but...”
The Shaykh : Are you using people as evidence or the verse? May Allah guide you.
The questioner : This is the reality.
The Shaykh : Are you using the reality of people as evidence, or do you say, “Allah—Blessed and Exalted is He—said”?
The questioner : We said, “Allah—Mighty and Majestic—said,” and then we applied it to the reality of those people, and we apply it to the reality of these people.
The Shaykh : There is no hypocrite and there is a believer with weak faith.
The questioner : The hypocrite and the one with weak faith are among the believers and the Muslims, meaning.
The Shaykh: All right.
The questioner : In the Muslim society.
The Shaykh : This is it, so we are talking about a believer in Allah and His Messenger who does an act contrary to his religion, and by which he exits his religion. And the example is the verse, which is a proof against you, because Allah is ruling that those people were mocking the verses of Allah, and mockery, as—bismillah—and as you know, my presence, you cannot imagine it separate from heart mockery.
The questioner : Meaning, what is the ruling in your view for one who mocks something of the verses of Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)?
The Shaykh : An apostate from his religion.
The questioner : An apostate...
The Shaykh : Yes, but listen to me.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : Listen to me a little.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : Listen to me, Professor.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : Listen to me, the one organizing the session, please. We did not gather to say whether the one who mocks becomes a disbeliever or not? Rather, we actually gathered to uncover the cause of declaring someone a disbeliever and the cause of disbelief, which is apostasy. Did we agree that the cause of apostasy is a heart act and not just an act of the limbs?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Please, I am asking you, no problem, within the limits of the example now.
The questioner : Yes, in the cause.
The Shaykh : Because you are coming back to ask me, “What is your opinion of one who mocks the verses of Allah?” I say to you, “He is an apostate from his religion, the matter is over.” No, the matter is not over.
The questioner : In this.
The Shaykh : In this, yes, the matter is not over. When does the matter end, my Professor? When you say, or I say, when you say, “I agree with you that mockery cannot be imagined as an act without a heart act, an act of the limbs without a heart act,” when you say the matter is over from this example... and all the previous examples, and that we are still demanding a fourth example from you, or I say to you, “I accepted this example that it comes with an act by which we rule it as apostasy and its heart is believing,” the matter ends here and we continue the research. As for me, I am still emphasizing to you that this example is like the one before it, and like the one before it, any examples you bring contain practical disbelief and creedal disbelief. We want the fourth example if you have one.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
(65) And if you ask them, they will surely say, "We were only conversing and playing." Say, "Is it Allah and His verses and His Messenger that you were mocking?" (66) Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon one faction of you - We will punish another faction because they were criminals.
وَلَئِنْ سَأَلْتَهُمْ لَيَقُولُنَّ إِنَّمَا كُنَّا نَخُوضُ وَنَلْعَبُ قُلْ أَبِاللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ وَرَسُولِهِ كُنْتُمْ تَسْتَهْزِئُونَ * لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا قَدْ كَفَرْتُمْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْMake no excuse; you have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon one faction of you - We will punish another faction because they were criminals.
لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا قَدْ كَفَرْتُمْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْ إِنْ نَعْفُ عَنْ طَائِفَةٍ مِنْكُمْ نُعَذِّبْ طَائِفَةً بِأَنَّهُمْ كَانُوا مُجْرِمِينَThe Shaykh : How did they mock if it was not mockery?
The questioner : They did not mock, and they thought that this was a conversation in which a traveler breaks the distance, but this is not what they thought, as Allah—Mighty and Majestic—said, that it was mockery of the verses of Allah. They did not know that this was mockery of the verses of Allah and of His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and of the believers, even though the verse is:
Did you disbelieve after your belief?
كَفَرْتُمْ بَعْدَ إِيمَانِكُمْThe Shaykh : And what is the context of the verse?
The questioner :
And if you ask them, they will surely say, "We were only conversing and playing." Say, "Is it Allah and His verses and His Messenger that you were mocking?"
وَلَئِنْ سَأَلْتَهُمْ لَيَقُولُنَّ إِنَّمَا كُنَّا نَخُوضُ وَنَلْعَبُ قُلْ أَبِاللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ وَرَسُولِهِ كُنْتُمْ تَسْتَهْزِئُونَThe Shaykh : The verse indicates that they were mocking.
The questioner : ...Allah—Mighty and Majestic—, as for the one who did this act, he says: “I did not intend mockery, nor did I do it deliberately.”
The Shaykh : So who is more truthful in speech than Allah?
The questioner : So who is more truthful in speech than Allah? This is, of course, in the apparent sense, the ruling of Allah regarding his disbelief due to his mockery.
The Shaykh : Okay, but you... regarding the mockery, you are saying they mocked, and then you say they were not mocking.
The questioner : They did not think so; they say, “We...”
The student : Do you have the book, my brother Muhammad, the book of Tawhid?
The Shaykh : No problem, if you think that what you are narrating is like this.
The questioner : It is correct.
The Shaykh : There is no need for the book.
The questioner : Yes, as for them, they do not say it was mockery; they deny being mockers and talkers, but Allah affirmed that by this act they mocked and thus became disbelievers.
The Shaykh : So bring me the narration if you wish, because I see a contradiction in your explanation.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The student : In Kashf al-Shubuhat (Unveiling the Doubts).
The Shaykh : Sugar, Professor... the tape does not go to waste so that the brothers can read the text.
The Shaykh : Let us hear the text, please.
The questioner : It refers to the previous one, but it is brief here, and this great issue becomes clear to you when you reflect on the words of people.
The Shaykh : Excuse me... the narration, Professor, we do not want the words of people... what is its text?
The questioner : Yes, he referred to the previous one only.
The Shaykh : You rule that they were mocking, so is this report true and not open to interpretation?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Okay, is mockery an act separate from the heart, or is it heart and act?
The questioner : In the apparent sense, it is an act separate from the heart by their words, as they thought.
The Shaykh: Oh, teacher.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Glory be to Allah, I am asking you about the ruling of the Lord of the Worlds, so let me be.
The questioner : Yes, the ruling of the Lord of the Worlds is that they became disbelievers because they mocked.
The Shaykh : So I ask you.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Do not tell me they mean such and such; that is their interpretation. We are now asking whether mockery is only an act or also a heart act. How do you imagine a person mocking another in his heart while praising him, and mocking him in his speech? How do you imagine this?
The questioner : By Allah, I can imagine it, imagining those people, but no...
The Shaykh : May Allah guide you, may Allah guide me and you, O Allah, guide us all.
The questioner : O Allah, amen.
The Shaykh : Let me be, I am asking you, how do you imagine a man mocking another but praising him in his heart?
The questioner : You do not imagine it, but it happened that they said, “We did not mean this, we did not intend this, we were not...”
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : After this, if Allah wills...
The Shaykh : Did you find the narration?
The questioner : ...the narration refers to it.
The Shaykh : We want the narration, Professor.
The questioner : Words, words.
The Shaykh : Not the words of the author.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : The narration the Professor is talking about.
The student : There is no narration.
The questioner : No, there is a narration in the index under “Mockery.”
Another questioner : We are asking about the people for whom these verses were revealed; were they not for a group of hypocrites, and it is known that the hypocrite displays what he does not...
The Shaykh : Coming, coming, Professor, the narration reveals the whole truth after the word of Allah, there is no speech, please proceed.
The student : Even if they denied the whole narration and said, “We did not mock, nor did we say it,” and lied to the Companions...
The Shaykh : What am I saying to him? Allah says so.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : ...the predecessors say so.
The student : ...we apply it to the ruler.
The Shaykh : But.
The questioner : So now this.
The student : Yes, exactly... exactly it works in it...
The questioner : No, because of the narration he narrated more than once; since Allah did not confirm for these people what they said...
The Shaykh : Because they are truthful or liars?
The questioner : Because they are liars.
The Shaykh : Glory be to Allah, so how do you use this verse as evidence for an act that is apostasy while the heart is believing? How do you use this as evidence?
The questioner : Because in reality, most people are like the polytheists or the rulers who rule by other than what Allah has revealed; they say to you, “My creed is not tainted by any flaw, but...”
The Shaykh : Are you using people as evidence or the verse? May Allah guide you.
The questioner : This is the reality.
The Shaykh : Are you using the reality of people as evidence, or do you say, “Allah—Blessed and Exalted is He—said”?
The questioner : We said, “Allah—Mighty and Majestic—said,” and then we applied it to the reality of those people, and we apply it to the reality of these people.
The Shaykh : There is no hypocrite and there is a believer with weak faith.
The questioner : The hypocrite and the one with weak faith are among the believers and the Muslims, meaning.
The Shaykh: All right.
The questioner : In the Muslim society.
The Shaykh : This is it, so we are talking about a believer in Allah and His Messenger who does an act contrary to his religion, and by which he exits his religion. And the example is the verse, which is a proof against you, because Allah is ruling that those people were mocking the verses of Allah, and mockery, as—bismillah—and as you know, my presence, you cannot imagine it separate from heart mockery.
The questioner : Meaning, what is the ruling in your view for one who mocks something of the verses of Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)?
The Shaykh : An apostate from his religion.
The questioner : An apostate...
The Shaykh : Yes, but listen to me.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : Listen to me a little.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : Listen to me, Professor.
The student : ... .
The Shaykh : Listen to me, the one organizing the session, please. We did not gather to say whether the one who mocks becomes a disbeliever or not? Rather, we actually gathered to uncover the cause of declaring someone a disbeliever and the cause of disbelief, which is apostasy. Did we agree that the cause of apostasy is a heart act and not just an act of the limbs?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Please, I am asking you, no problem, within the limits of the example now.
The questioner : Yes, in the cause.
The Shaykh : Because you are coming back to ask me, “What is your opinion of one who mocks the verses of Allah?” I say to you, “He is an apostate from his religion, the matter is over.” No, the matter is not over.
The questioner : In this.
The Shaykh : In this, yes, the matter is not over. When does the matter end, my Professor? When you say, or I say, when you say, “I agree with you that mockery cannot be imagined as an act without a heart act, an act of the limbs without a heart act,” when you say the matter is over from this example... and all the previous examples, and that we are still demanding a fourth example from you, or I say to you, “I accepted this example that it comes with an act by which we rule it as apostasy and its heart is believing,” the matter ends here and we continue the research. As for me, I am still emphasizing to you that this example is like the one before it, and like the one before it, any examples you bring contain practical disbelief and creedal disbelief. We want the fourth example if you have one.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.