Discussion of the content of the paper: "Non-sectarianism is the most dangerous religious innovation in Islamic law"

The Shaykh: According to Ibn Hajar, whether the Hanafi follows what the Shafi'i follows or... why is it disliked? Because he believes certain things are recommended practices, whereas for the Shafi'i they are obligatory; therefore, according to Ibn Hajar, it is abandoned absolutely. Some of them even said: at the end of the prayer, after the imam prays, prostrate for forgetfulness. And Al-Ramli says: No, absolutely not; if there is no invalidator in the belief of the Shafi'i follower... This is according to Al-Ramli, and according to the Shafi'i, absolutely, whether he brings all the recommended things in his belief or not.
Al-Albani: So this is the answer, meaning absolutely in every issue?
The Shaykh: Yes, indeed.
Al-Albani: Okay; the important thing you referred to in your speech, if possible, please point us to the evidence that proves the validity of this title in this paper: that non-sectarianism is the most dangerous religious innovation in Islamic law?
Al-Bouti: The content of the paper, my teacher, the content of the paper, after moving away from the points on which there is no disagreement, all of them constitute the evidence you are asking for regarding this title.
Al-Albani: The paper from beginning to end.
Al-Bouti: After stopping at the matters on which there is no disagreement, the new thing he claims is the evidence for that; because it is known to you...
Al-Albani: If Allah wills.
Al-Bouti: It contains what indicates that the Companions adhered to the schools of their scholars, and the Tabi'un adhered to the schools of their scholars, and the Tabi'in of the Tabi'un adhered to the schools of their scholars up to this day.
Al-Albani: So you mean by "sectarianism" a meaning that does not immediately come to mind... What do you mean by "sectarianism"? It is known that "sectarianism" is adhering to following a specific imam, a specific person; so you are attributing this meaning that we understand to the Companions. Was there a school of Abu Bakr, a school of Umar, a school of Uthman, a school of Ali, a school of Mu'adh among the Companions? Do you know this among the Companions?
Al-Bouti: There were among the Companions those who were not at ease except with the fatwas of Ibn Abbas, and they constantly asked Ibn Abbas.
Al-Albani: No problem; but was there a community following an imam from the Companions in knowledge, like Ibn Mas'ud, like Mu'adh, like the four caliphs? Do you know this?
Al-Bouti: No, my teacher, we want to take the ruling from the single individual, or there were men among the Companions who, whenever they found something difficult, asked Ibn Abbas, and there were among the Companions those who, whenever they found something difficult, asked Ubayy, as you know.
Al-Albani: They do not ask anyone else.
Al-Bouti: No, if he heard an opinion from Ubayy and an opinion from Ibn Abbas, he followed the opinion that Ubayy stated.
Al-Albani: In every issue?
Al-Bouti: In every issue that may confront him.
Al-Albani: Okay; do you have proof for this claim?
Al-Bouti: In the history of legislation.
Al-Albani: No, there is a paper, in the paper right now, I am asking you for the evidence that proves the validity of this title; first, that non-sectarianism is a religious innovation, this is what I am asking for, second, that it is the most dangerous religious innovation, third, in Islamic law, there are three...
Al-Bouti: I understood it.
Al-Albani: Yes, please go ahead.
Al-Bouti: The answer is that the Companions, meaning the non-mujtahids among the Companions, what were they doing? Did they adhere to the school of the mujtahids among them or did they not adhere?
Al-Albani: They adhered to the opinion of every mujtahid among them, not specifically, so sometimes if a fatwa from Abu Bakr was available to him, he took it without binding himself to the fatwa of Abu Bakr, if a fatwa from Umar was available to him, likewise, they did not have this commitment to follow a specific person, and you are now claiming that they adhered to a specific person as you said regarding Ubayy and regarding another person you named, yes? Ibn Abbas, I am now demanding from you the evidence in this paper, if you say in this paper there is no evidence, there is no objection, I do not restrict you; because our research has two branches; one branch relates to the paper itself with this very dangerous title, and a second branch, if the evidence did not occur to you, you can mention it here, you can mention the evidence from another book, I have no objection, the important thing is that my question was limited to pointing me to the evidence you cited to prove this title.
Al-Bouti: Where did you get the idea that the one who asked Abu Bakr or Umar or Ibn Abbas for a fatwa was adhering to the verbalization of the school...?
Al-Albani: I am not saying anything, I am not claiming that he adheres, I say he does what Allah obligated him to do, and you yourself affirmed this issue, this is what we are surprised by, allow me, we agree that Allah - Mighty and Majestic - obligated the one who does not know how to perform independent legal reasoning to ask the people of knowledge, now this is a point - also - a point of consensus, there is no disagreement between two Muslims ever.
Al-Bouti: It is obligatory for him.
Al-Albani: Allow me, allow me a moment, so now the question is, where is your evidence that not adhering to a specific school - let us remove the name "school" and put in its place the scholar of the school, the founder of the school, call it what you want, there is no dispute over terminology -; where do we get that the Muslim's non-adherence in his religion to the opinion of a specific scholar or a specific school is the most dangerous religious innovation in Islam? Where does this come from?
Al-Bouti: No, I did not say this, I did not say non-adherence to a specific imam, oh teacher, if you were a reader of the paper.
Al-Albani: Be patient, we are saying, what is sectarianism, my teacher?
Al-Bouti: I will answer you.
Al-Albani: Please.
Al-Bouti: Sectarianism, I will answer you about sectarianism, and I will answer you about the point I just mentioned, first let us know, let us agree, what is sectarianism?
Al-Albani: Yes, please, this is what I am asking you.
Al-Bouti: Sectarianism is that the man who has not reached the level of independent legal reasoning adheres to an imam from the imams in his rulings, whether this imam varied and multiplied in his life or did not vary and did not multiply, this sectarian follows the tail of an imam from the imams in both cases.
Al-Albani: Or with many imams.
Al-Bouti: Or with many imams, he is called a sectarian, this person is called a sectarian.
Al-Albani: Okay.
Al-Bouti: And it is not required for him to be called a sectarian that he adheres to one imam throughout his life, so who is the non-sectarian?
Al-Albani: Who?
Al-Bouti: The opposite; he is the one who did not adhere to an imam, neither individually nor did he adhere to multiple imams.
Al-Albani: Fine, I tell you frankly, I agree with this, I say.
Al-Bouti: Be patient with me to finish.
Al-Albani: Please.
Al-Bouti: So the non-sectarian is the one who did not adhere in his asking for a fatwa to a specific imam nor did he move from one imam to another, of course the man who has not reached the level of independent legal reasoning, and he was not... nor is he the most dangerous innovator.
Al-Albani: I ask you now, this meaning is correct; meaning there is no problem in it, but in this way there is no Muslim except he is a sectarian, in this way there is no Muslim on the face of the earth except he is a sectarian.
Al-Bouti: Does this author say this?
Al-Albani: Yes, this is what this author says.
Al-Bouti: No, this author does not, oh teacher.
Al-Albani: Allow me a moment.
Al-Bouti: No, oh teacher.
Al-Albani: Allow me a moment.
Al-Bouti: Wait, please.
Al-Albani: No problem; be patient now, now we are concerned with the research... the person of the author or the living people now present?
Al-Bouti: I am answering this.
Al-Albani: No problem, no problem, you are answering this book, you do not want to guide him while he is in his grave, but you want to guide people who went astray behind him, this is the reality.
Al-Bouti: I want to clarify that much of what came in this book is false so that many people do not go astray with it.
Al-Albani: This is what you said, my brother; therefore we do not argue about self-evident truths.
Al-Bouti: May Allah grant you success. Let me finish, but let me finish.
Al-Albani: Glory be to Allah.
Al-Bouti: Let me finish.
Al-Albani: Glory be to Allah, you are repeating what I said.
Al-Bouti: No, my professor, in this book there is an indication that a man may be non-madhhabic, and it is obligatory for him to do so by holding fast to the Book and the Sunnah directly, and it says: "It is easy for a man to do this; he does not need anything but the presence of 'Sahihayn' and 'Muwatta' Malik' and ...," so this is the work of one who did not hold fast to one imam or many imams; this is the innovator.
Al-Albani: I mean, I want to summarize your words according to my understanding: that this author says that the Muslim who is ignorant of the way of deriving rulings from the Book and the Sunnah should not follow or should not imitate any imam in the world.
Al-Bouti: Yes.
Al-Albani: Is this what you want?
Al-Bouti: Yes.
Al-Albani: Please, give us the text.
Al-Bouti: Look, my master, I say: "The imams are not infallible, and the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) is the infallible one. These madhahib are matters of religious innovation that occurred after the previous centuries, and every innovation ..."
Let me read you several places.
Al-Albani: No problem, what is the page you are reading from now?
Al-Bouti: Page six, this is the first issue.
Al-Albani: Yes, please.
Al-Bouti: ... "As for the madhahib, they are the opinions of the scholars and their understanding in some issues and their independent legal reasoning, and these opinions and independent legal reasoning ... Allah (the Exalted) and His Messenger did not obligate anyone to follow them," then we leave another one as well.
Al-Albani: Wait, let us see, what do you take from this statement? First, is this statement in its absolute sense, as you studied the treatise in its absolute sense?
Al-Bouti: By Allah, I do not know, this phrase ... what do they understand from it based on your understanding of the treatise, what do you understand from it?
Al-Albani: Glory be to Allah, I am asking you, I discussed with you an absolute phrase from your words, so now I do not change what I believe is correct; discuss the author himself in the same way; do you understand this statement in its absolute sense?
Al-Bouti: Professor, this statement is not a matter of absoluteness, look at what he is saying? The madhahib.
Al-Albani: You did not answer me.
Al-Bouti: Let me answer you.
Al-Albani: Let me hear you, but tell me, do you understand it in its absolute sense or restricted?
Al-Bouti: You are restricting me to answer you in my style.
Al-Albani: I am not restricting you.
The Shaykh: ... .
Al-Albani: Yes?
The Shaykh: Why did he not mention its restriction if it is restricted?
Al-Albani: Let him say this, let him say this is an absolute statement.
Al-Bouti: It does not need a restriction or anything.
Al-Albani: And let him say that, my professor, I am asking you, no problem, I say in that case it is obligatory for the author to restrict it, the truth is with me whether it is for him or against him, whether it is for that one or against him, this statement is yours.
Al-Bouti: Let me answer you, professor.
Al-Albani: Please.
Al-Bouti: This statement is an absoluteness that is very unlikely to be intended as a restriction; because he says: "These opinions and independent legal reasoning.
Al-Albani: This is the answer, please ... .
Al-Bouti: Allah (the Exalted) and His Messenger did not obligate anyone to follow them." Anyone in its generality.
Al-Albani: Yes, is this generality not permissible to be restricted?
Al-Bouti: Where is the restriction?
Al-Albani: Is it permissible or not permissible, I ask? It will come later, in many texts, but do you want to finish your statement or shall I show you the texts?
Al-Bouti: No, first, and show me the texts that are restricting it.
Al-Albani: Okay.
Al-Bouti: Then ... one, two, three, professor, this statement is dangerous in this absoluteness.
Al-Albani: No problem, do you want to hear from me or shall I listen to you?
Al-Bouti: Please.
Al-Albani: On page 29 it says: "And know that taking the statements of the scholars and their analogical reasoning is like dry ablution with clean earth; it is only resorted to when water is absent. So where a text from the Book and the Sunnah, and I say the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them), is found, taking it is obligatory and one does not turn away from it to the statements of the scholars." What do you think of this statement? Is this not a text that restricts this absolute statement?
Al-Bouti: No, this is not considered a restriction, I said in my treatise and described this treatise as having a mixture in it, the truth mixed with falsehood, he placed correct matters and placed false matters, he placed false matters and argued for them with correct matters.
Al-Albani: You said this, yes.
Al-Bouti: And this necessitated for me to extract the agreed-upon matters.
Al-Albani: Yes.
Al-Bouti: So the man who says, professor: "Obtaining the way of understanding from the Book is easy and does not need more."
Al-Albani: The page?
Al-Bouti: Page 40, "It does not need more than 'Muwatta' and 'Sahihayn' and 'Sunan Abu Dawud' and 'Jami' al-Tirmidhi and al-Nasa'i', and these books are known and famous and can be obtained in the shortest time; so you must know that," the one who says this statement, professor, considers his statement contradictory, and it is not considered a restrictor.
Al-Albani: If you allow me, start speaking from the third line.
Al-Bouti: The third line: "Then, O Muslim"?
Al-Albani: Yes.
Al-Bouti: "If your ambition rises in knowledge and your determination strengthens in mindfulness of Allah, then strive to understand the explicit Book and the apparent Sunnah and the action of most of the scholars of the Salaf, and gather the different hadiths and follow the authentic and good reports narrated in the books of the hadith scholars, and take the strongest and most analogous and most cautious," all of it is confirmation of the following statement.
Al-Albani: Okay; what is in this statement?
Al-Bouti: He says.
Al-Albani: Wait a moment, first, is this statement absolute or restricted?
Al-Bouti: It commands the ...
Al-Albani: I am only asking you, my master, I have studied the treatise.
Al-Bouti: There is no absoluteness, it is a command, professor, the command is a creation and is not said.
Al-Albani: My dear professor, are you the reader of the treatise?
Al-Bouti: I am the reader of it.
Al-Albani: And I am the reader of it, I am not telling you I did not read it, you are the reader of it and I am the reader of it, and your treatise, you are its author and I have read it, so I did not come and request to meet you to read your treatise or al-Ma'sumi's treatise to me.
Al-Bouti: ... allow me a moment.
Al-Albani: No, not to read to me or for me to read to you, but to understand these texts, if you wanted to read to me, I would not have come to you!
Al-Bouti: We are being forced, professor.
Al-Albani: No problem, but I am asking you, this statement you just read; and it is "If your ambition rises in knowledge," is this statement for all Muslims or specific to a certain class of Muslims? This is what I am asking you.
Al-Bouti: This statement is an address to every Muslim.
Al-Albani: "If your ambition rises in knowledge"?!
Al-Bouti: No, professor, and the proof of that, just as you restricted my previous statement, I will tell you the proof of that on page four.
Al-Albani: Before that, before that, my master ... this meaning, does every Muslim's ambition rise?
Al-Bouti: He addresses all people, and considers that every Muslim rises, that he rises in ...
Al-Albani: There is a condition, my professor; "If your ambition rises in knowledge," are you addressing those who have no knowledge with this?
Al-Bouti: He is addressing, my professor, allow me to answer you.
Al-Albani: Please.
Al-Bouti: The reality is that the expression is not that he is addressing some.
Al-Albani: It is not that.
Al-Bouti: It is not that.
Al-Albani: Strange, by Allah!
Al-Bouti: My master, allow me to finish for you.
Al-Albani: Please.
Al-Bouti: But broaden your chest for me.
Al-Albani: Please, please, I am broad.
Al-Bouti: ...Allow me, on page five, Professor, it clarifies that it is easy for a Muslim to understand Islam. Jibril came to the Messenger of Allah and said to the Messenger: What is Islam? He said: . And so on, the hadith of Ibn 'Abd Allah: , such and such a hadith, such and such a hadith. And based on that, it clarifies that the Bedouin understood Islam with complete ease. And based on that, he builds upon this, he builds upon the simplicity of Islam and its ease, even for the Bedouin, that following the madhahib (schools of jurisprudence) should not be the case. So he says, based on that: As for the madhahib, they are the opinions of their people and are not... Based on that, Professor, his later statement became "If your ambition is high," the lowest rank includes the Bedouin.
Al-Albani: No, my dear sir.
Al-Bouti: How? Here is the page...
Al-Albani: It says: "If your ambition is high in knowledge," Professor, in knowledge, not in ignorance. If a man is a cowherd who has no knowledge at all, then any Arab, or one who has an Arab instinct, understands from this address that it is directed at the common people who do not reason, while he says: "If your ambition is high in knowledge."
Al-Bouti: ...Does he not say.
Al-Albani: Allow me, I let you finish your speech, so here he says: "If your ambition is high in knowledge and your resolve is strong in taqwa (mindfulness of Allah)," this second condition, "and your resolve is strong in taqwa," does not exclude those who have no taqwa? Is there not a contradiction in this?
Al-Bouti: ...
Al-Albani: Allow me a moment, then he says: "So strive to understand the explicit Book and the apparent Sunnah and the practice of the majority of the scholars of the Salaf," the practice, understanding, the practice of the majority of the scholars of the Salaf; does this not require one to be a student of knowledge, and a student of knowledge with a certain level of culture? Is that not so? How do you handle all these conditions and leave them aside and speak in general terms?
Al-Bouti: Do you want me to answer you or not?
Al-Albani: Please, it was just that I did not want to explain my idea to you.
Al-Bouti: Okay, okay.
Al-Albani: I consider all of this to be speech directed at a specific class of people.
Al-Bouti: At my service.
Al-Albani: So how did you understand the generality? Please.
Al-Bouti: Okay.
Al-Albani: I am asking you, please.
Al-Bouti: Is the Bedouin who was in the time of the Messenger among the addressees of this speech?
Al-Albani: No.
Al-Bouti: He was not.
Al-Albani: No, this address does not include him.
Al-Bouti: Then how did he cite pages 5 and 6 to prove that the madhahib are the opinions of their people, and that Allah has not obligated us to follow them, testifying to that by saying the Bedouin understood the hadith and understood Islam with complete simplicity and without the need for opinions, ijtihad (independent legal reasoning), and so on? If these Bedouins do not fall under the author's condition... which you intend; then how did he argue here that the madhahib must not be followed by saying the Bedouin took directly from the Book and the Sunnah? If the Bedouin did not raise himself to that level, he would not take directly from the Book and the Sunnah!
Al-Albani: Do you allow the answer?
Al-Bouti: Please.
Al-Albani: This speech which you attribute to the Bedouin, or which he attributed to the Bedouin, we must look, my dear Professor, at what comes before the speech; because you know that among the principles of knowledge - also - and its rules, is that context and preceding text restrict the speech; is that not so?
Al-Bouti: There is no context here.
Al-Albani: Professor, later, is there or is there not? That is my job. I am now saying, is that not so?
Al-Bouti: ...
Al-Albani: Yes, that this rule has a disagreement in your difficulty?
Al-Bouti: No, there is no disagreement.
Al-Albani: ...So I must now prove to you the context and preceding text that restricts this speech which you are quoting from him.
Al-Bouti: Okay; where is the context?
Al-Albani: Yes, he says first the introduction, which you did not point to at all, nor did you clarify the fixed driving reason for such an answer, and I am being frank with you.
Al-Bouti: That I have an introduction?
Al-Albani: The introduction of the treatise itself; meaning the driving reason for writing the treatise is this, you did not mention it.
Al-Bouti: ...The page, meaning.
Al-Albani: The question...; meaning the driving reason for him to write the treatise, you did not address this at all; even though if you had quoted this introduction, it would have been sufficient to make the reader understand what this author means regarding the madhab of the Messenger - peace be upon him - that it is easy and simple, and so on... and the like. So you know, and everyone present knows, that this treatise was written in response to a question that came to him from some Muslims in Japan, that some Japanese wanted to enter Islam, and what stood in the way of their entry was that some of them suggested to these seekers of Islam that they should be Shafi'i, and some suggested they should be Hanafi; so this was a barrier to their entering Islam. So this treatise was the answer. Now it becomes clear to you that his speech is not as...
Al-Bouti: Where?
Al-Albani: Allow me a moment, it is not as... I told you, and I ask you to mean, let us stand at this point, I say our goal is not to read to each other, but our goal is for each of us to present what he understands from this author's speech, or what he understands from this.
Al-Bouti: We are forced to read.
Al-Albani: Allow me, I am not telling you not to read, but I am explaining to you what I understand, and then read.
Al-Bouti: Please, where is the context, where is the preceding text?
Al-Albani: If you allow me, sir, this man, based on this incident that was reported to him, wrote this answer, wanting from him that every Muslim who wants to enter Islam is not obligated to be Shafi'i or Hanafi; merely when he testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah - the five pillars, meaning -; then he has become a Muslim. After that comes the method of following a madhab or not following a madhab, do you see how? So you - may Allah bless you - come to take from his speech that this Bedouin is able to understand Islam, he no longer says this speech, Professor. Now let us read his speech.
Al-Bouti: Professor, your speech is beautiful if it did not come directly followed by his saying: "As for the madhahib, they are the opinions of the scholars and their understandings in some issues and their ijtihad."
Al-Albani: Professor, notice the word of restriction - may Allah bless you - "in some issues," this is also a precautionary condition that we are not allowed to overlook.
Al-Bouti: The one who wants to write speech so that people understand it does not write like that!
Al-Albani: Subhan Allah, Subhan Allah!
Al-Bouti: And you, your honor, took me with a small condition.
Al-Albani: Yes, yes, yes.
Al-Bouti: This is a disaster for you, it would have been sufficient for him to say: "As for entering Islam," and this I wrote in my treatise, as you know.
Al-Albani: Yes, sir.
Al-Bouti: I said entering Islam and preserving and adopting its rulings is one thing, and understanding these verses is another.
Al-Albani: La ilaha illa Allah, say with me: La ilaha illa Allah.
Al-Bouti: La ilaha illa Allah.
Al-Albani: I say with you, it must be.
Al-Bouti: If you allow me.
Al-Albani: Please.
Al-Bouti: Do you remember that I wrote in my treatise that I distinguished between entering Islam and understanding the general rulings; this is one moment, then understanding these rulings in detail; how to pray, how to perform Hajj, how to give zakah; the author should have said this in his answer, people; as for your Islam, it does not depend on any of this, you are Muslims whether you adhere to a madhab or not, but after that, the application of Islam, its worship, its transactions, and its laws, depends on your adhering to... a mujtahid imam.
Al-Albani: No, it depends on your asking the people of knowledge.
Al-Bouti: Who are the people of knowledge?
Al-Albani: That is it.
Al-Bouti: Who are they?
Al-Albani: Do you accept this answer now?
Al-Bouti: Who are the people of knowledge?
Al-Albani: No problem, sir, do you accept this answer?
Al-Bouti: My answer or your answer?
Al-Albani: I am the one who is speaking.
Al-Bouti: ...
Al-Albani: Either you or I. If you spoke, since you have been resting for a long time, it would be better, meaning, please speak.

Another questioner: ... Do you accept my answer, Your Excellency?
Al-Albani: I mean, you want to speak, please go ahead, I am listening to you. Okay, he will go ahead, please.
Al-Bouti: Do you want me to accept your answer?
Al-Albani: I say: What is your opinion? You said that the author's report must be such and such.
Al-Bouti: Yes.
Al-Albani: I have a comment on your words from two aspects, or an answer from two aspects. The first answer: We are not now, my dear professor, in the process of correcting the writer's style; because I am telling you frankly: the writer is a Bukhari man, and I met him twenty years ago. So, he is a man of great good who emigrated from his country, Russia and the Caucasus and those lands, and settled in the Sacred Mosque there, and was able to write this treatise in this language.
Al-Bouti: This is proof that he is capable of expressing what he wants...
Al-Albani: Allow me to answer. Glory be to Allah! Allow me to finish my argument.
Al-Bouti: This is if it were weak.
Al-Albani: Allow me to finish my arguments. I am saying that this man, meaning, does not have eloquence and does not have clarity. Not everyone who picks up a pen and writes a complete Arabic sentence without, for example, a grammatical error, without...
Al-Bouti: By Allah, they express it well, praise be to Allah, there is no...
Al-Albani: Allow me, eloquence and clarity are something else, my professor. The important thing now is that we have a goal and we have a means. You are now discussing and accepting... the means, not the goal. We now have this treatise in our hands in this style. Does this style give us the understanding that this man makes following the Book and the Sunnah obligatory for every Muslim, even if he lives behind the cows?! We say that we have dozens of texts, without exaggeration, in this treatise where he does not say this word that you attributed to him. And I do not want to forget, or for you to forget; we read to you his words that there is a comparison, for example, between following the Book and the Sunnah and following the sayings of the Imams. It became that following the Book and the Sunnah is in the position of purifying oneself with water, and following the scholars is in the position of dry ablution. This alone, may Allah bless you, is enough for you to understand that this man is not as you think he is, and also...
Al-Bouti: By Allah, professor, this is bad suspicion.
Al-Albani: No, no, allow me.
Al-Bouti: This leads us to what would be a contradiction.
Al-Albani: I accept the professor's words here; I ask him a direct question: Do you remember this word, my master, that you read just now...?
Another Shaykh: I did not read it, neither this nor that.
Al-Albani: Very good. What do you think of this word? "And know that taking the opinions of the scholars and their analogies is in the position of dry ablution, which is only resorted to when water is not available." Is this word correct or not?
Another Shaykh: Correct.
Al-Albani: Very good, its completion is: "So where a text from the Book and the Sunnah, and I say the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them), is found, taking it is obligatory and one does not turn away from it to the sayings of the scholars."
Al-Bouti: No, this...
Al-Albani: Allow me a moment, I am asking the virtue ofThe Shaykh : , please go ahead.
Another Shaykh: ... But there is a difference between a student and a teacher, and between a follower and a jurist; I am now hearing the words of the Companions and hearing the verse and hearing the hadiths, and I am not able to act upon them; why? Because I am not capable of what is required for the jurist; and that is to be a scholar of all types of Arabic languages and of eloquence and rhetoric.
Al-Albani: Correct.
Another Shaykh: And of logic and grammar, and of the principles, and of the abrogating and the abrogated, and of all the sciences of the tools.
Al-Albani: And of all the sciences of the tools, as they say.
Another Shaykh: Yes, and the terminology of hadith, and of the contradictions.
Once a man grabbed me by the ear because I drank water while standing; I was standing so I sat down. He said: If you were drinking according to the Sunnah.
Al-Albani: Zamzam water.
Another Shaykh: No, not Zamzam. I said to him: This is the Sunnah. He said: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) drank while standing. I said to him: And where is the prohibition? I lined up... I said to him: ... (peace and blessings be upon him) intended so that we do not say the prohibition is for prohibition, so the intention is not here. I said to him: You now, you were fair if you were all like your story, there would be no difference among us in issuing fatwas... Now I have to give you two hadiths, and they are authentic, and you are done with them, there is a contradiction, so I cannot and he cannot prove it. He said: Bring them. I said to him: When water reaches two qullahs, it does not carry impurity. This restricted me... and he did not say..., and the second hadith: does not change. Here it mentioned change and did not mention quantity, and there it mentioned two qullahs and did not mention change. What... please, what? He said: I take one of the two analogies. I said: That will not do, you must make one of them either abrogated or restricted.
Al-Albani: My master, this is understood and accepted.
Al-Bouti: Let him finish.
Another Shaykh: Not everyone is good at it.
Al-Albani: Understood, my master, this is the answer, the question, my master.
Another Shaykh: Yes...
Al-Albani: Be patient, the error is not in us, it is not in us, rather they are rewarded for it.
Another Shaykh: ... Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanbali... If the matter in which they differed is broad in truth, and we see the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) approving any of them, we do not know, okay; we do not say any of them is invalid.
Al-Albani: Correct, my master, but we do not name it with the four schools of jurisprudence which differed in a matter... on two or more opinions, we do not name it as a religion in its contradiction, but we name the religion of Muhammad a religion, ... the opinions in their contradiction?
Another Shaykh: ...
Al-Albani: Please.
Another Shaykh: Now if you allow me... please prove it with an example, now we are a group... did it become valid in every prayer or not?
Al-Albani: It became valid.
Another Shaykh: Ah, so if it became valid, how can it not be a religion?
Al-Albani: There is no god but Allah.
Another Shaykh: ...
Al-Albani: Allow me, I answered you, it became valid; is that not so?
Another Shaykh: And the validity... is it not a religion?
Al-Albani: Allow me, my professor, I will answer you.
Another Shaykh: Please go ahead.
... ... ... .
Al-Albani: Do you want me to answer you as you want?
Another Shaykh: ...
Al-Albani: Okay, allow me.
Another Shaykh: Please go ahead.
Al-Albani: The error in reality is not in us.
Another Shaykh: ...
Al-Albani: Allow me, allow me to finish my words... I understood from you and answered you as you want clearly, and my answer is correct; is that not so? Meaning, these who exerted effort in deriving evidence, so each one's prayer is valid, and the qiblah is one; okay; this is me answering you as you want, so let us leave it aside for now, but the one who hit the truth among these is one of them, this truth which we do not know... and we may know it later; this truth is the religion, as for the other exertions of effort which did not hit the qiblah at... and were not clarified, they are an error in the sight of Allah, but Allah (Mighty and Majestic) by His grace permits these first the validity of the prayer, but according to the text in the reward, from the reward of the one who hit the qiblah. If you allow me, is this a word in disagreement?
Al-Bouti: No.
Al-Albani: Good, now give me the result, it is... what Allah has put in your mouth is in reality a very wonderful example; because it solves the problem. This situation happened after the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)...; is that not so? If you allow me... one prayed from here, one prayed from there, so no one ordered... to repeat the prayer.
Al-Bouti: ...
Al-Albani: Very good, but did it not become clear to all people that those who prayed toward the qiblah are the ones who hit the qiblah, and the others missed it? Okay; is this error described as a religion? This error which became clear.
Al-Bouti: Yes.
Al-Albani: Please; is this error which became clear that it is an error permissible... for us to analogize it as a religion?
Al-Bouti: It became clear as a religion; because (peace and blessings be upon him)... and did not order them to repeat the prayer, ...
Al-Albani: My master, my master.
Al-Bouti: Please go ahead.
Al-Albani: He remained silent because the Lawgiver ... approved that the community not be put in a difficult position, so they exercised independent legal reasoning and made a mistake, ... on ... one, but we do not say that this manner, we agreed that the prayer is valid, when we say that this which has become clear to be a mistake, is it called religion? And the mistake, my sir.
Al-Bouti: Please go ahead.
Al-Albani: And the mistake is a type of misguidance, and Allah - Mighty and Majestic - says: , so if it has become clear that these people were misguided regarding the qiblah and made a mistake.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: Allow me, my sir, , misguidance, whether you mean by it that which is the opposite of correctness; meaning the mistake, or that which is the opposite of truth, which is falsehood, all of it is meant here; so the Messenger - peace be upon him - here did not exercise independent legal reasoning and exhaust the effort to call a mistake ... a mistake and remain silent ... there is no place for a mistake in this, but this mistake which has become clear, you insist on calling it religion?!
Al-Bouti: Religion ... because the Prophet came with religion.
Al-Albani: It did not come as religion.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: We agreed on this, my brothers ..., we agreed on this, but ... he approved the mistake in the sense of.
Al-Bouti: As long as he approved it.
Al-Albani: This is like a person who kills a believing soul by mistake ... allow me, we said ... do you call it religion?
Another Shaykh: ... so his independent legal reasoning is from the religion, and what his independent legal reasoning led to is not from the religion ... .
Al-Albani: What it led to? The religion did not lead to it; rather, it is the human mistake ... allow me, Shaykh, you mean to take what is contrary to the opinion of the scholars; the madhhab must not be a madhhab ... well, allow me, he wants to compel me, and I say it explicitly, allow me, my sir, ... you are judging this thing whose mistake has become clear that the Messenger - peace be upon him - did not order his companion to exercise independent legal reasoning ... independent legal reasoning, I say to you explicitly: independent legal reasoning is from the religion, but what this mujtahid reached and it became clear that it is a mistake, this is not permissible to interpret as religion at all.
...
Another Shaykh: ... independent legal reasoning is from the religion, and I am certain of that, independent legal reasoning before its mistake or correctness becomes clear ... persisting in the mistake is not from the religion.
Al-Albani: Allow me, it is not only persisting; perhaps it may not become clear, but this mistake in its reality is not religion, but we may not have it become clear to us, this mistake in its reality is not religion; meaning that Allah did not make it an act of worship for us, but He obligated us to follow the path that leads us to ...
... allow me, I am saying that we were not made to worship by this specific mistake, but we were made to worship by following the path that leads us to know Allah's ruling in the issue that occurred, so we say: independent legal reasoning is from the religion, and what this mujtahid reached is obligatory for him to follow, so if it becomes clear to him - to this mujtahid - or to another that it is a mistake; first, it is not permissible to call this mistake religion, second, it is not permissible for the one to whom it has become clear that it is a mistake to follow it.
Another Shaykh: ... as long as the truth becomes clear, persisting in falsehood is not from the religion, but while the mistake is not distinguished from the truth, it is religion for the doer and not ... independent legal reasoning, it is from the religion.
Al-Albani: That is not the issue here.
Another Shaykh: Unless it becomes clear that it is a mistake.
Al-Albani: That is ... butThe Shaykh : he wants to call it religion.
Another Shaykh: Then we are in agreement.
Al-Albani: Please.
...
Al-Albani: After the mistake becomes clear, there is no need to call it religion ... .
Another Shaykh: ... .
Al-Albani: We are in agreement; persisting in a mistake that has become clear is not religion and it is not permissible to follow it, but this does not benefit us in what we are discussing ... .
Al-Bouti: The basis of the discussion is that the religion of the Messenger of Allah - peace and blessings be upon him - is the truth, and that the other madhahib are not truth due to the possibility of ... .
Al-Albani: They are not all truth.
Al-Bouti: They are not all truth due to the possibility of mistakes occurring in them.
Al-Albani: It is not a possibility, the mistake is certain ... .
Al-Bouti: ... it becomes clear from your words that all these madhahib are religion because a madhhab from the madhahib.
Al-Albani: ... please go ahead.
Al-Bouti: Because a madhhab from the madhahib did not persist in the mistake in what it exercised independent legal reasoning in after it became clear to it that it was a mistake, and all the imams exercised independent legal reasoning in matters where they perhaps deviated from the truth which is with Allah, but it was hidden from them.

Those present: - And upon you be peace and the mercy of Allah and His blessings -
Al-Bouti: But it - my professor - was hidden from them, so it is still religion.
Al-Albani: ... the discussion is about the imams, rather the discussion is about the followers of the imams - may Allah bless you -, the discussion is not about the imams, you have now radically changed the subject. Allow me, allow me, my professor, he makes ... religion as you say?
Al-Bouti: Yes.
Al-Albani: Why? Because he found types of followers of the madhahib and the truth of the Book and the Sunnah became clear to him, and I think you acknowledge this, I think; so either you confirm my suspicion and make it a suspicion.
Al-Bouti: ... the madhhab.
Al-Albani: ... the Hanafi madhhab, the Maliki madhhab.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: Did we come to discuss now the self-evident matters?
Al-Bouti: ... something else ... .
...
Al-Albani: Not the common people, the scholars, like the shaykhs, like ... .
Al-Bouti: You understand from the madhhab following.
Al-Albani: Of course ... .
...
Al-Bouti: ... in other words.
Al-Albani: And what is it?
Al-Bouti: The madhahib are the opinions of the scholars, opinions and what the followers of the scholars said ... .
...
Al-Bouti: First ... the madhahib, in what the author wants, are the opinions of al-Shafi'i, a collection of the opinions of the Hanafi, a collection of the opinions of Malik.
Al-Albani: The author does not say it that way.
Al-Bouti: As for the madhahib, they are the opinions of the scholars.
Al-Albani: Yes; complete the statement.
Al-Bouti: And their understandings in some issues.
Al-Albani: In some, in some, you say: the author says: the madhahib are opinions.
Al-Bouti: No.
Al-Albani: ... you are generalizing, my professor, he is restricting! ... that the restricted statement with the same statement, you delete something and you bring an absolute statement, he says some of the opinions of the imams, some of the madhhab.
Another Shaykh: The opinions of the scholars and their followers in some issues.
Al-Albani: But your discussion now ... in some ... .
Another Shaykh: ... .
Al-Albani: Glory be to Allah! You know - and we all know - that the madhahib in issues on which they agree and are in consensus, and on which there are texts from the Book and the Sunnah; are these not from the madhahib?
Another Shaykh: ... .
Al-Albani: Allow me; are they not from the madhahib?
Another Shaykh: These are matters ... the madhahib in ... .
Al-Albani: What is this that I am saying, did the imams not adopt it and it did not become their madhhab? ... .
...
Al-Albani: ... a point of agreement.
Al-Bouti: The madhahib are not for following, rather they are opinions.
...
Al-Bouti: ... the madhhab of the Messenger in following ... or his madhhab is what came from Allah ... .
Al-Albani: ... if the truth is with me, it is upon me, and if the truth is with another, you remain silent!! Please allow me, let me complete my statement.
Another Shaykh: Please go ahead.
Al-Albani: ... it comes in some issues ... what does it mean? It means that the author believes, any Muslim scholar, that the madhahib of the four imams, some are taken from the Book, some are taken from the Sunnah, some are taken from the Book and the Sunnah; falsehood does not come to him from before him or from behind him, some are taken from independent legal reasoning, these are the opinions, these are the independent legal reasonings in which there are differences ... but by the way of derivation which is exposed to mistake, not by the way of text! By the way of derivation ... some, why did he call them opinions? Some ... the five prayers; are these opinions?
Al-Bouti: These are outside the opinions of the Salaf ... .
Al-Albani: The five prayers; are these opinions? No, so from here it becomes clear to you that ... .
Another Shaykh: ... .
Al-Albani: Yes?
Another Shaykh: ... .
Al-Albani: I mean ... I mean that in issues known from the religion by necessity, in jurisprudential issues ... in things where there is certainty and no disagreement, as we said, something from the Book, something from the Sunnah, something from both; so the author excluded these from the point of disagreement, and rather ... .
Al-Bouti: Good.
Al-Albani: These opinions are matters of independent legal reasoning.
...
Al-Bouti: ... Now, the schools of jurisprudence, as you understand and as is understood by you, are those opinions that accept independent legal reasoning and accept scholarly disagreement, derived from ... . These opinions are followed; following is not ... a school of jurisprudence; meaning, the school of the Messenger ... .
Al-Albani: No, no, no, my dear sir, no, no, no. When a person knows the school of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him), it is obligatory for him to follow it, and whoever turns away from it while knowing it has committed disbelief.
Al-Bouti: And it is a school of jurisprudence.
Al-Albani: I beg of you, I beg of you, the school of the Messenger ... the author ... the Messenger in what becomes clear to the Muslim; if he turns away from it, it is disbelief. As for, allow me to clarify the difference for you ... the author. Since you know that Abu Hanifah said such and such, and you did not follow him ... this is the difference that makes the author acknowledge that Muhammad has the true school of jurisprudence, and this designation is not given to another school ... he made it a counterpart in view of one who clings to a school as he must cling to the religion, meaning ... .
Al-Bouti: I have a discussion with you ... clinging, or is it that the school was interpreted as the opinions of the community taken from the Book, not ... as you said, yes, fine; these opinions ... do we follow them, are they called opinions or not?
Al-Albani: ...?
Al-Bouti: Meaning, if ... he recorded his opinions in his book "Al-Umm" and ... not one ...; are they called opinions or not?
Al-Albani: Yes, they are called opinions.
Al-Bouti: And he named these opinions a school of jurisprudence ... and included them in the book "Al-Umm" as a school of jurisprudence.
Al-Albani: No, this generalization is not correct. The book "Al-Umm" did not include what the book "Al-Umm" ... .
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: ... the book "Al-Umm," for example.
Al-Bouti: The opinions derived from the Book and the Sunnah are the school of jurisprudence.
Al-Albani: They called them opinions, and they are the school of jurisprudence.
Al-Bouti: And we did not say that they are all truth.
Al-Albani: Yes, of course.
Al-Bouti: Is that correct or not? And we have now agreed that the error of al-Shafi'i, as long as it has not been discovered yet; it is ... if al-Shafi'i exerted effort in a matter and it is with Allah ... an error, but we have not seen his error in that.
Al-Albani: He thought it was truth.
Al-Bouti: Is the independent legal reasoning ... and what he reached obligatory or not?
Al-Albani: Of course, we agreed on this, a repetition of the topic!
Al-Bouti: But ... and all the independent legal reasoning of the imams ... it is not possible to find an imam whose error was revealed ... and he acknowledged it.
Al-Albani: Correct.
Al-Bouti: Then all their opinions ... .
Al-Albani: You have also strayed from the topic. Allow me, my dear professor, our problem is not the imams, our problem is following the imams ... because these opinions, because our intention is the imams, contrary to what many people think ... the subject of the entire paper is not criticizing the imams, of course you are saying and as they say ... the imams exerted effort, at least in ... it has become one of the self-evident matters, we do not need ... . Our problem now is following them.
Al-Bouti: ... we agreed that the schools of jurisprudence, not the opinions.
...
Al-Albani: Allow me, I am telling you; let me finish my speech ... the subject of the paper is entirely, and the subject of your paper is not about the imams ... the school-based and the non-school-based ... so this speech cannot be interpreted unless you read the paper from beginning to end, and give a summary of it with all means of care and precision, completely. So we are now in ...; that some restrictions were not addressed at all. Any person who reads your paper does not know in his mind or remember this beautiful example of water and dry ablution, and that we do not forbid following a scholar without knowing his evidence absolutely, but we make it obligatory ... . Allow me; so the research now, my dear sir, is not about the imams.
...
Al-Bouti: ... I told you, if you want, al-Shafi'i, I did not follow him, not one; are his opinions called a school of jurisprudence or not?
Al-Albani: You are researching hypothetical matters that were not followed. This is one disagreement that was followed. Imam al-Shafi'i was followed. Why are you researching in hypotheticals? In reality, we were exhausted because of him, and this in summary ... .
Al-Bouti: ... the schools of jurisprudence are opinions, opinions not said to be followed, opinions not followed, he did not say opinions not followed! Where are the followed opinions? ... Professor ... and as for the schools of jurisprudence based on independent legal reasoning, opinions ... .
Al-Albani: Did you read the paper?
Al-Bouti: I did not read it at all.
Al-Albani: You did not read it!! I call upon you by Allah; is the subject of the paper not about following the schools of jurisprudence?
Al-Bouti: The subject of the paper.
Al-Albani: Is the subject of the paper not about following the schools of jurisprudence?
Al-Bouti: The subject of the paper, following the schools of jurisprudence ... ... .
Al-Albani: ... I am telling him: Did you read the paper? ... .
Al-Bouti: I did not read it.
Al-Albani: Yes?
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: No problem ... allow me to finish, allow me to finish; and it is not heard!! This is not a style ... .
Al-Bouti: ... the word following, the man said: the schools of jurisprudence.
Al-Albani: ... this has no relation to you, but I am telling you: allow me to speak, allow me to speak, andThe Shaykh : ... I call upon you by Allah, I call upon you by Allah, I have finished my speech, you say no, allow me.
Al-Bouti: Finish ... .
Al-Albani: He is speaking about opinions in ... but the subject of the paper, you know and I know, is not specifically about the imams. The imams are a nation that has passed, they went ... rewarded in any case, there is no disagreement in the matter at all ... between two Muslims ... , what is in it?
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: His speech.
Al-Bouti: No.
Al-Albani: His speech, his speech is that the Muslim is rewarded whether he erred or was correct. He speaks about these opinions and that it is not permissible ... and clinging to them as one must adhere to the other part of the Shari'ah, ... this is the research. So why do you come clinging to the opinions, discussing them about the imams? There is no disagreement, not between me and you about the imams, and not between you and the author; because the author appreciates the imams like us and better than us. But the subject of the entire paper is this which we are all speaking about regarding the followers of the imams; so he rebukes these ... that one of them becomes clear to him the Sunnah and he says ... I gave you an example in it ... my speech, I gave you an example, he is an Arab who must pray with Imam al-Shafi'i, so if I leave this truth that became clear to me, he mentions, and here is the disagreement ... ... the subject is the subject of the community, this. You say, what is your business with your father, correct, and he has no business with you, but your father represents the belief of the student ... there is no difference.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: Allow me, I am discussing your book ... you are addressing an audience ... and you did not clarify this point in your paper, or else.
Al-Bouti: Allow me, allow me a moment ... Professor.
Al-Albani: Yes?
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: No, no ... , you did not read this paper.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: I asked you just now ...
...
Al-Albani: ... upon it ... many. Here he wanted to discuss the issue with fairness and gradualness. We have clarified to you that the man does not ... following a scholar without knowing his evidence absolutely, and these are explicit texts; so you may reconsider them ... the man does not forbid following a scholar without knowing his evidence absolutely, but.
Al-Bouti: ... he says: following a scholar without knowing his evidence is following one who is not infallible ... .
Al-Albani: Allow me, yes, yes; if the Sunnah becomes clear ... he says: dry ablution with water is a clear example. In any case ... he asks the followers to be ... discerning in their religion, not making the school of jurisprudence the religion ... not making the school of jurisprudence the religion. The entire religion is with the Lord of the Worlds, but the school of jurisprudence has truth and error in it. So if the truth becomes clear to him in another school of jurisprudence, he must follow it; especially if ... with him a clear text he clings to. Your father ... and he represents the mentality ... our sheikhs, I tell you: you .. the rank of independent legal reasoning, I do not ... the rank of independent legal reasoning, I have two imams, al-Shafi'i and Abu Hanifah, and they are all imams, and I do not have a text ... that this one is more knowledgeable than this one or this one is more knowledgeable than this one ... you did not address this point, nor ... it is that which must ... there is no disagreement in it.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: Glory be to my Lord! Glory be to my Lord! ... Allow me to speak four times, and then he is not allowed to. I have not addressed this issue; on the contrary; you ... why? ... .
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: Do I not want to finish my speech?
Al-Bouti: Finish ... .
Al-Albani: You say that everyone is either a mufti or a follower of a scholar (mقلid), and this is what I assumed, which you explicitly deny in your letter, and perhaps in other letters as well. I say that in the example I gave, you affirm it and say there is no disagreement, but you did not affirm this in this letter, and if you had affirmed it, you would have agreed with the author.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: I have not finished my speech. After I finish, you will say to me ... You say in your letter that people are either a mufti or a follower of a scholar (mقلid); is that right or not? You say this in the letter, and you add to this that the follower of a scholar (mقلid) is the one who does not know the evidence for the issue in which ...; is that right or not? Well; in the previous system, I do not think you can say I am a follower of a scholar (mقلid), because your description and definition do not apply to me; right? Or ... independent, taking directly from the Book and the Sunnah ... is that right or not? So I am neither a mujtahid nor a follower of a scholar (mقلid), so in your view you say ... but there is no third option, so in your view.
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: Please.
Al-Bouti: ... the mujtahid.
Al-Albani: Is that not what is in your letter?
Al-Bouti: It is known ... ... one issue, he is called a mujtahid in this issue ... .
Al-Albani: Allow me, allow me, if one of the general public is a Hanafi or Shafi'i adherent ... .
Al-Bouti: ... .
Al-Albani: We are describing to you a layman, not ... his question is limited, there is nothing ... a layman, and his school is Hanafi or Shafi'i, and he was informed through a man of knowledge and virtue of a hadith from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), and this hadith ... .