A discussion on the hadith of Mu'adh, the early stages of the call, and a continuation of the discussion regarding the Muslim and the disbeliever.
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The questioner : As for the hadith of Mu'adh.
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
The questioner:Riyad as-Salihin 1077 ... on, so he interpreted ... there is no time period here, there is no, I mean ... .
The Shaykh : As for the time period, I am not different from you in wording.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : No, no, allow me.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : I am not different from you in wording, but I am different from you in understanding.
The questioner : Excellent, let us leave this.
The Shaykh: All right.
The questioner : Now, regarding the one who calls to tawhid (the oneness of Allah), which is you now, if you started - for example - with many of the brothers who follow you with the ring.
The Shaykh : What ring?
The questioner : A gold ring - for example - which a person wears.
The Shaykh : Who told you that he starts with this?
The questioner : I noticed it, and once I heard a word from you at the Sharia Institute, at the beginning and at the end ... today, for example, one of the brothers.
The Shaykh : Stop at this ... .
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Please, please, no problem.
The questioner : Let us leave today's event for now, today's event was that one of the young men entered upon a man who was sitting with us drinking tea with his left hand, so he said to him: Drink with your right hand.
The Shaykh : Yes...
The questioner : Yes, so with what did he start?
The Shaykh : With a branch of the branches ... .
The questioner : Is this path your path or the path of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)?
The Shaykh : ... the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him).
The questioner : The path of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) is to start with a sunnah (recommended practice) or a manner of the etiquettes of drinking before calling to tawhid (the oneness of Allah)?
The Shaykh : Now you have started to reveal the truths a little.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : This is the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him) by his saying:Sahih Muslim 49a, and you know this hadith, but the disagreement remains in the application.
If you allow me.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : We say: This is the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him), but what appears to me, with my previous reservation, is that we do not have to treat each other as they treated each other in the Meccan period, so you appear to me now to be in the Meccan period.
The questioner : No, I am with people.
The Shaykh : Allow me a moment, allow me a moment.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : I say: I see it this way ... and then you express your opinion, so you see this munkar (what is wrong) that you exemplified, I first do not know that this man is a disbeliever, on the contrary; I know him as a Muslim, and before I said: We must treat him as Muslims, so I saw that he fell into an error, I saw - for example - we stood up for prayer and he did not stand up to pray.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : So he started ... in the prayer; I did not open the topic of La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) with him at all, nor tawhid al-uluhiyyah (oneness of worship), tawhid al-rububiyyah (oneness of lordship), and the attributes, etc., so according to your way, I would be wrong.
The questioner : There is no doubt.
Another questioner : If he prays, does it benefit him?
The questioner : Yes, because we have the question we asked.
The Shaykh : Allow me.
So what I understood ... on your way, we are wrong when we ordered this man, whom we know only as a Muslim, to pray; this is a mistake; why?
Yes?
The questioner : Because it is premature.
The Shaykh : Yes, in establishing the 'illah (the operative cause of a ruling), is this understood? So this is a mistake, on what did you build the mistake? On the basis that the Messenger (peace be upon him) sent Mu'adh to the Christians in Yemen.
The questioner : The People of the Book.
The Shaykh : The People of the Book, the Christians, it is not permissible to say: Christians?
The questioner : Yes, the Jews and the Christians ... .
The Shaykh : Now, sir, the Jews and the Christians.
He sent them to the People of the Book, these are one group of disbelievers, these are we must apply the literal hadith of Mu'adh completely; that he starts with them with the testimony, then if they respond to you, then with prayer, etc., but our situation now is not like that, and here is the point of criticism or the sensitive point ... if there will remain disagreement after the agreement on the previous points.
We now find a man praying beside me and he has a gold ring in his hand, you tell me: Do not forbid the gold ring, start with the foundation of tawhid (the oneness of Allah), now I did not know him as I knew the Jews and the Christians that they are disbelievers so that I start with him, I am with you, I start with whom I know as a disbeliever, I start with tawhid; because nothing benefits other than tawhid, but I am never with you that whenever I see a man I do not know at all and have not heard of him, etc., but I see on him the appearances of Islam - Islam is not faith -; so I see him contradicting Islam in a detail; no, you must start with him with tawhid; meaning - for example - if you saw me contradicting a sunnah (recommended practice) in your belief, and we never met at all, what do you do with me? You start with me in tawhid, I - praise be to Allah - am the first caller and we found what we found in the path of Allah if Allah wills, why did you consider me a disbeliever and started speaking to me about tawhid? What made you do this? Is your Islam like this?
The questioner : ... upon the people ... so-and-so.
The Shaykh : I say: I am an individual, it appeared to you from my deeds that I am a Muslim, it appeared to you from my deeds that I am a Muslim.
The questioner : It did not appear.
The Shaykh : And he struck for you. How did it not appear? Allow me, I gave you an example, he was praying beside me.
The questioner : Give an example you ... upon him, upon you, meaning; because you told me: I saw you.
The Shaykh : Glory be to Allah! I give an example according to my conception, you then look at the example, is it correct or not, you answer it or you do not answer it, it suits the occasion ... this is a man I do not know, I saw him praying with the Muslims, and I saw him with that carrying a gold ring, so I advised him, you tell me: It is a mistake to start with him, what should I start with? With tawhid, yes, I know him as a Muslim, and he did not raise the flag as the disbelievers of the Jews and the Christians raised the flag of shirk (associating partners with Allah) with Allah (Mighty and Majestic) so that I start with him with tawhid, but I start with him with what he raised the flag of disobedience, and if it is the ring? So I advise him; so where do you get - my dear professor - that the Shari'ah orders you that you assume in one whom you see the sign and emblem of Islam, it orders you that you do not forbid him anything at all except that you start with him with tawhid and you do not know him as a mushrik (one who associates partners with Allah); where do you get this?
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes?
Another questioner : This point I say from the beginning, assuming Islam, but if we assumed disbelief, the path ... .
The Shaykh : ... .
Another questioner : This point is solved from the origin that there is now nothing ... .
...
The questioner : If we said: Those who pronounce La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) from the people ... we now do not understand it ... .
The Shaykh : Not all of them.
Another questioner : ... .
The questioner : ... the most important, and they are the taghut (tyrants).
The Shaykh: Who ... ?
The questioner : Professor.
The Shaykh : Oh, glory be to Allah.
The questioner : Yes, I did not mention ... .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes?
Another questioner : ... judges by other than what Allah revealed.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : I mention them in the path ... meaning.
The questioner : In the path of whom? For this Ummah (the Muslim community).
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Why are we in the process of limiting the obvious shirk (associating partners with Allah) matters?
The questioner : I gave examples.
The Shaykh : Allow me a moment.
The questioner : No, but if this was important to you, you would have struck at the beginning!
The Shaykh: Glory be to Allah!
The questioner : Allah knows best!
The Shaykh : Allah knows best, you are correct.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Allah, Allah knows best.
The questioner : The issue means they pronounce La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) but they do not know its meaning, except whom Allah has mercy upon.
The Shaykh : My dear professor, the one you know that he does not know the meaning of La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) but disbelieves in the meaning of La ilaha illa Allah; so your discussion with him about prayer and all the pillars is futile.
The questioner : What do you call it now?
The Shaykh : Allow me, allow me.
But the one you do not know that he is like that, but you see him as a Muslim, who said: For him who says La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) is what we have and upon him is what is upon us.
The questioner : And disbelieves in what is worshipped besides Allah.
The Shaykh : Allow me. Glory be to Allah!
I have not been accustomed to you ... .
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : I say: The one I know that he disbelieves in what is worshipped besides Allah, he pronounced it but due to his ignorance he disbelieves in it, so it is not permissible for you or for any knowledgeable Muslim person to start with him in a point other than tawhid (the oneness of Allah).
The questioner : A question here.
The Shaykh : Allow me...
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : Because this is half the speech, half the speech has no answer.
But if you do not know that from him, but you know from him prayer and fasting and and all the pillars of Islam, and foremost among them I bear witness that there is no deity but Allah, you did not know from him a nullifier of this testimony, this is not permissible for you Islamically as we understand - and we are ready to discuss it also -; it is not permissible for you if you see from him a munkar (what is wrong) that you advise him, so if you see from him the greater munkar (what is wrong) it is not permissible for you to occupy yourself with the lesser munkar (what is wrong).
The questioner : This greater munkar (what is wrong), does it really mean.
The Shaykh : I want to verify your statement properly; I want to understand, do you agree?
The questioner : Agreed.
The Shaykh : ... please.
The questioner : Regarding those who are declared disbelievers.
The Shaykh : By the testimony of "There is no god but Allah."
The questioner : With "La ilaha illa Allah" (There is no god but Allah).
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Do you begin with them this beginning in your calling?
The Shaykh : I told you.
The questioner : Truly, right now.
The Shaykh : Why are you saying no? I told you, let me finish my speech.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : Whoever we have taught is a disbeliever, I say to our brothers, let me give you examples. A man comes to you and asks: Is it true that the Messenger of Allah was taken up to the lowest heaven, and then from above it to the end? ... If this person comes to you.
Another questioner : ... between you and him - for example - ... ... .
The Shaykh : I say: I look at this questioner. If I know that he is a believer in Allah and His Messenger, I investigate the Night Journey and the Ascension with him. But if he is from the youth raised on atheism and disbelief, I see it as futile to investigate the Night Journey and the Ascension with him. You must jump ... to Allah - Mighty and Majestic - before anything else. So if he believes in Allah, that is sufficient, of course, belief in Allah; because many people worship Allah and disbelieve in the laws. So I proceed with him until we reach the law; did he believe in Muhammad ibn Abdullah and that he came with the religion of Islam? He believed. At that point, it is good ... with him, by way of transmission, and then by way of reason if he is ... on this. But the difference between us and you - as it appears - is that I do not assume that these are disbelievers, and it is not permissible Islamically to treat them as disbelievers; because they raised the banner of Islam. You know that in the Prophetic biography, when the Messenger - peace be upon him - went out on a military expedition, he did not raid them except in the morning; he would listen, and if he heard the call to prayer, he would move to another village. If he did not hear the call to prayer, he would raid them. So the call to prayer is a safety ... appeared. What is the reason? Because they declared the banner of Islam. But did they understand it or not? This is a matter that relates first to these individuals, and second to the scholars present in this village. They must fulfill their duty; that is, imagine a disbelieving village that the Muslims raided, and they declared Islam. When did these people understand Islam ... quickly? They did not understand anything. They said: "There is no god but Allah." You do not begin with them with secondary matters. But people we live with who pray our prayer and fast our fast, yet we know from many of them, or most of them, that they truly do not understand the meaning of "There is no god but Allah." And those I know to be so, we investigate with them the matter of the Seal of the Prophets, and even not prayer.
So the point of disagreement between us and you is whether the original status of these people is that they are disbelievers or Muslims? It appears to me - and I do not know the unseen - that you are ruling them as disbelievers! ... .
The questioner : ... this is ruled as disbelief, except for whom Allah has mercy.
The Shaykh : Allow me, allow me.
This exception is lost for you, it has no value in terms of reality.
The questioner : Why?
The Shaykh : Because you do not know ... you do not know.
The questioner : The exception, we say: whoever understood "There is no god but Allah."
The Shaykh : I say, but you do not know them.
The questioner : We do not know them individually.
The Shaykh : Yes, that is it; therefore, from a practical standpoint.
The questioner : We do not know their specific identities either.
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : That is, we do not declare a specific individual a disbeliever, so-and-so.
The Shaykh : No problem, but I am saying: do you treat this society as a Muslim society or a disbeliever society? A Muslim society.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : This is contrary to the Shari'ah! Because Islam applies the rulings of Islam and accepts only the declaration of the testimony "There is no god but Allah." As for the realization of the testimony "There is no god but Allah," that is up to Allah - Mighty and Majestic - , up to Allah - Mighty and Majestic - .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : My dear professor ... this is a point of disagreement. Perhaps in another session we will discuss this topic, and perhaps Allah - Mighty and Majestic - .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, and perhaps Allah - Mighty and Majestic - will grant us success to take steps - also - toward agreement.
In short: any society that declares the slogan of Islam, the testimony, and prayer in mosques, we do not begin with them with tawhid (the oneness of Allah) unless we know that they have truly disbelieved in tawhid. Another society built churches and houses of shirk (associating partners with Allah) - Mighty and Majestic - , and raised the crosses. Of course, I think you believe that the smallest Muslim animal - if the expression is correct - or the largest Muslim animal - if the expression is correct - will not come to discuss with the owners of crosses that the gold ring is forbidden, and that intoxicants are forbidden; he will begin with them with tawhid.
So this point must be clarified. Is this society in which the banners of "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" were raised, and the reality of this banner was represented in many actions and Islamic pillars; are these people equal to those who raised the flags of disbelief and misguidance? They are not equal, for example. This is our view ... your view, and based on that it branches out that you do not ... .
...
The questioner : ... we have a question here.
The Shaykh : Before the question, is it enough ... up to here?
The questioner : If I do not deny ... is it a denial?
The Shaykh : It is contrary to the Shari'ah.
The questioner : It is contrary to the Shari'ah, but I am not ... and he is eternal in the Fire.
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : No, far be it from Allah!
There is no previous discussion between you and me.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Okay, so are we done with this point?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : So every Muslim whose outward appearance is Islam, we treat him with the treatment of Muslims.
The questioner : And you forbid him ... .
The Shaykh : Okay, are we done with this?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you.
You mentioned you have a question, and I am frank in the discussion and do not like taking things for granted. Do you want me to continue, or do you ask?
The questioner : No, truly ... if you wish, if Allah wills, to ... after we agreed yesterday on everything you said.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
The questioner:
You will go to people of the Scripture
إنك تأتي قومًا من أهل الكتاب ؛ فأولyou call them to "There is no god but Allah" until they make Allah one
ما تدعوهم إلى لا إله إلا الله إلى أن يوحِّدوا اللهThe Shaykh : As for the time period, I am not different from you in wording.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : No, no, allow me.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : I am not different from you in wording, but I am different from you in understanding.
The questioner : Excellent, let us leave this.
The Shaykh: All right.
The questioner : Now, regarding the one who calls to tawhid (the oneness of Allah), which is you now, if you started - for example - with many of the brothers who follow you with the ring.
The Shaykh : What ring?
The questioner : A gold ring - for example - which a person wears.
The Shaykh : Who told you that he starts with this?
The questioner : I noticed it, and once I heard a word from you at the Sharia Institute, at the beginning and at the end ... today, for example, one of the brothers.
The Shaykh : Stop at this ... .
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Please, please, no problem.
The questioner : Let us leave today's event for now, today's event was that one of the young men entered upon a man who was sitting with us drinking tea with his left hand, so he said to him: Drink with your right hand.
The Shaykh : Yes...
The questioner : Yes, so with what did he start?
The Shaykh : With a branch of the branches ... .
The questioner : Is this path your path or the path of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him)?
The Shaykh : ... the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him).
The questioner : The path of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) is to start with a sunnah (recommended practice) or a manner of the etiquettes of drinking before calling to tawhid (the oneness of Allah)?
The Shaykh : Now you have started to reveal the truths a little.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : This is the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him) by his saying:
He who amongst you sees something abominable should modify it with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhor it) from his heart, and that is the least of faith.
مَن رأى منكم منكرًا فليغيِّره بيده ، فإن لم يستطع فبلسانه ، فإن لم يستطع فبقلبه ، وذلك أضعف الإيمانIf you allow me.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : We say: This is the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him), but what appears to me, with my previous reservation, is that we do not have to treat each other as they treated each other in the Meccan period, so you appear to me now to be in the Meccan period.
The questioner : No, I am with people.
The Shaykh : Allow me a moment, allow me a moment.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : I say: I see it this way ... and then you express your opinion, so you see this munkar (what is wrong) that you exemplified, I first do not know that this man is a disbeliever, on the contrary; I know him as a Muslim, and before I said: We must treat him as Muslims, so I saw that he fell into an error, I saw - for example - we stood up for prayer and he did not stand up to pray.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : So he started ... in the prayer; I did not open the topic of La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) with him at all, nor tawhid al-uluhiyyah (oneness of worship), tawhid al-rububiyyah (oneness of lordship), and the attributes, etc., so according to your way, I would be wrong.
The questioner : There is no doubt.
Another questioner : If he prays, does it benefit him?
The questioner : Yes, because we have the question we asked.
The Shaykh : Allow me.
So what I understood ... on your way, we are wrong when we ordered this man, whom we know only as a Muslim, to pray; this is a mistake; why?
Yes?
The questioner : Because it is premature.
The Shaykh : Yes, in establishing the 'illah (the operative cause of a ruling), is this understood? So this is a mistake, on what did you build the mistake? On the basis that the Messenger (peace be upon him) sent Mu'adh to the Christians in Yemen.
The questioner : The People of the Book.
The Shaykh : The People of the Book, the Christians, it is not permissible to say: Christians?
The questioner : Yes, the Jews and the Christians ... .
The Shaykh : Now, sir, the Jews and the Christians.
He sent them to the People of the Book, these are one group of disbelievers, these are we must apply the literal hadith of Mu'adh completely; that he starts with them with the testimony, then if they respond to you, then with prayer, etc., but our situation now is not like that, and here is the point of criticism or the sensitive point ... if there will remain disagreement after the agreement on the previous points.
We now find a man praying beside me and he has a gold ring in his hand, you tell me: Do not forbid the gold ring, start with the foundation of tawhid (the oneness of Allah), now I did not know him as I knew the Jews and the Christians that they are disbelievers so that I start with him, I am with you, I start with whom I know as a disbeliever, I start with tawhid; because nothing benefits other than tawhid, but I am never with you that whenever I see a man I do not know at all and have not heard of him, etc., but I see on him the appearances of Islam - Islam is not faith -; so I see him contradicting Islam in a detail; no, you must start with him with tawhid; meaning - for example - if you saw me contradicting a sunnah (recommended practice) in your belief, and we never met at all, what do you do with me? You start with me in tawhid, I - praise be to Allah - am the first caller and we found what we found in the path of Allah if Allah wills, why did you consider me a disbeliever and started speaking to me about tawhid? What made you do this? Is your Islam like this?
The questioner : ... upon the people ... so-and-so.
The Shaykh : I say: I am an individual, it appeared to you from my deeds that I am a Muslim, it appeared to you from my deeds that I am a Muslim.
The questioner : It did not appear.
The Shaykh : And he struck for you. How did it not appear? Allow me, I gave you an example, he was praying beside me.
The questioner : Give an example you ... upon him, upon you, meaning; because you told me: I saw you.
The Shaykh : Glory be to Allah! I give an example according to my conception, you then look at the example, is it correct or not, you answer it or you do not answer it, it suits the occasion ... this is a man I do not know, I saw him praying with the Muslims, and I saw him with that carrying a gold ring, so I advised him, you tell me: It is a mistake to start with him, what should I start with? With tawhid, yes, I know him as a Muslim, and he did not raise the flag as the disbelievers of the Jews and the Christians raised the flag of shirk (associating partners with Allah) with Allah (Mighty and Majestic) so that I start with him with tawhid, but I start with him with what he raised the flag of disobedience, and if it is the ring? So I advise him; so where do you get - my dear professor - that the Shari'ah orders you that you assume in one whom you see the sign and emblem of Islam, it orders you that you do not forbid him anything at all except that you start with him with tawhid and you do not know him as a mushrik (one who associates partners with Allah); where do you get this?
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes?
Another questioner : This point I say from the beginning, assuming Islam, but if we assumed disbelief, the path ... .
The Shaykh : ... .
Another questioner : This point is solved from the origin that there is now nothing ... .
...
The questioner : If we said: Those who pronounce La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) from the people ... we now do not understand it ... .
The Shaykh : Not all of them.
Another questioner : ... .
The questioner : ... the most important, and they are the taghut (tyrants).
The Shaykh: Who ... ?
The questioner : Professor.
The Shaykh : Oh, glory be to Allah.
The questioner : Yes, I did not mention ... .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes?
Another questioner : ... judges by other than what Allah revealed.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : I mention them in the path ... meaning.
The questioner : In the path of whom? For this Ummah (the Muslim community).
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Why are we in the process of limiting the obvious shirk (associating partners with Allah) matters?
The questioner : I gave examples.
The Shaykh : Allow me a moment.
The questioner : No, but if this was important to you, you would have struck at the beginning!
The Shaykh: Glory be to Allah!
The questioner : Allah knows best!
The Shaykh : Allah knows best, you are correct.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Allah, Allah knows best.
The questioner : The issue means they pronounce La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) but they do not know its meaning, except whom Allah has mercy upon.
The Shaykh : My dear professor, the one you know that he does not know the meaning of La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) but disbelieves in the meaning of La ilaha illa Allah; so your discussion with him about prayer and all the pillars is futile.
The questioner : What do you call it now?
The Shaykh : Allow me, allow me.
But the one you do not know that he is like that, but you see him as a Muslim, who said: For him who says La ilaha illa Allah (There is no deity but Allah) is what we have and upon him is what is upon us.
The questioner : And disbelieves in what is worshipped besides Allah.
The Shaykh : Allow me. Glory be to Allah!
I have not been accustomed to you ... .
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : I say: The one I know that he disbelieves in what is worshipped besides Allah, he pronounced it but due to his ignorance he disbelieves in it, so it is not permissible for you or for any knowledgeable Muslim person to start with him in a point other than tawhid (the oneness of Allah).
The questioner : A question here.
The Shaykh : Allow me...
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : Because this is half the speech, half the speech has no answer.
But if you do not know that from him, but you know from him prayer and fasting and and all the pillars of Islam, and foremost among them I bear witness that there is no deity but Allah, you did not know from him a nullifier of this testimony, this is not permissible for you Islamically as we understand - and we are ready to discuss it also -; it is not permissible for you if you see from him a munkar (what is wrong) that you advise him, so if you see from him the greater munkar (what is wrong) it is not permissible for you to occupy yourself with the lesser munkar (what is wrong).
The questioner : This greater munkar (what is wrong), does it really mean.
The Shaykh : I want to verify your statement properly; I want to understand, do you agree?
The questioner : Agreed.
The Shaykh : ... please.
The questioner : Regarding those who are declared disbelievers.
The Shaykh : By the testimony of "There is no god but Allah."
The questioner : With "La ilaha illa Allah" (There is no god but Allah).
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Do you begin with them this beginning in your calling?
The Shaykh : I told you.
The questioner : Truly, right now.
The Shaykh : Why are you saying no? I told you, let me finish my speech.
The questioner: Go ahead.
The Shaykh : Whoever we have taught is a disbeliever, I say to our brothers, let me give you examples. A man comes to you and asks: Is it true that the Messenger of Allah was taken up to the lowest heaven, and then from above it to the end? ... If this person comes to you.
Another questioner : ... between you and him - for example - ... ... .
The Shaykh : I say: I look at this questioner. If I know that he is a believer in Allah and His Messenger, I investigate the Night Journey and the Ascension with him. But if he is from the youth raised on atheism and disbelief, I see it as futile to investigate the Night Journey and the Ascension with him. You must jump ... to Allah - Mighty and Majestic - before anything else. So if he believes in Allah, that is sufficient, of course, belief in Allah; because many people worship Allah and disbelieve in the laws. So I proceed with him until we reach the law; did he believe in Muhammad ibn Abdullah and that he came with the religion of Islam? He believed. At that point, it is good ... with him, by way of transmission, and then by way of reason if he is ... on this. But the difference between us and you - as it appears - is that I do not assume that these are disbelievers, and it is not permissible Islamically to treat them as disbelievers; because they raised the banner of Islam. You know that in the Prophetic biography, when the Messenger - peace be upon him - went out on a military expedition, he did not raid them except in the morning; he would listen, and if he heard the call to prayer, he would move to another village. If he did not hear the call to prayer, he would raid them. So the call to prayer is a safety ... appeared. What is the reason? Because they declared the banner of Islam. But did they understand it or not? This is a matter that relates first to these individuals, and second to the scholars present in this village. They must fulfill their duty; that is, imagine a disbelieving village that the Muslims raided, and they declared Islam. When did these people understand Islam ... quickly? They did not understand anything. They said: "There is no god but Allah." You do not begin with them with secondary matters. But people we live with who pray our prayer and fast our fast, yet we know from many of them, or most of them, that they truly do not understand the meaning of "There is no god but Allah." And those I know to be so, we investigate with them the matter of the Seal of the Prophets, and even not prayer.
So the point of disagreement between us and you is whether the original status of these people is that they are disbelievers or Muslims? It appears to me - and I do not know the unseen - that you are ruling them as disbelievers! ... .
The questioner : ... this is ruled as disbelief, except for whom Allah has mercy.
The Shaykh : Allow me, allow me.
This exception is lost for you, it has no value in terms of reality.
The questioner : Why?
The Shaykh : Because you do not know ... you do not know.
The questioner : The exception, we say: whoever understood "There is no god but Allah."
The Shaykh : I say, but you do not know them.
The questioner : We do not know them individually.
The Shaykh : Yes, that is it; therefore, from a practical standpoint.
The questioner : We do not know their specific identities either.
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : That is, we do not declare a specific individual a disbeliever, so-and-so.
The Shaykh : No problem, but I am saying: do you treat this society as a Muslim society or a disbeliever society? A Muslim society.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : This is contrary to the Shari'ah! Because Islam applies the rulings of Islam and accepts only the declaration of the testimony "There is no god but Allah." As for the realization of the testimony "There is no god but Allah," that is up to Allah - Mighty and Majestic - , up to Allah - Mighty and Majestic - .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : My dear professor ... this is a point of disagreement. Perhaps in another session we will discuss this topic, and perhaps Allah - Mighty and Majestic - .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, and perhaps Allah - Mighty and Majestic - will grant us success to take steps - also - toward agreement.
In short: any society that declares the slogan of Islam, the testimony, and prayer in mosques, we do not begin with them with tawhid (the oneness of Allah) unless we know that they have truly disbelieved in tawhid. Another society built churches and houses of shirk (associating partners with Allah) - Mighty and Majestic - , and raised the crosses. Of course, I think you believe that the smallest Muslim animal - if the expression is correct - or the largest Muslim animal - if the expression is correct - will not come to discuss with the owners of crosses that the gold ring is forbidden, and that intoxicants are forbidden; he will begin with them with tawhid.
So this point must be clarified. Is this society in which the banners of "There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" were raised, and the reality of this banner was represented in many actions and Islamic pillars; are these people equal to those who raised the flags of disbelief and misguidance? They are not equal, for example. This is our view ... your view, and based on that it branches out that you do not ... .
...
The questioner : ... we have a question here.
The Shaykh : Before the question, is it enough ... up to here?
The questioner : If I do not deny ... is it a denial?
The Shaykh : It is contrary to the Shari'ah.
The questioner : It is contrary to the Shari'ah, but I am not ... and he is eternal in the Fire.
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : No, far be it from Allah!
There is no previous discussion between you and me.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Okay, so are we done with this point?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : So every Muslim whose outward appearance is Islam, we treat him with the treatment of Muslims.
The questioner : And you forbid him ... .
The Shaykh : Okay, are we done with this?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you.
You mentioned you have a question, and I am frank in the discussion and do not like taking things for granted. Do you want me to continue, or do you ask?
The questioner : No, truly ... if you wish, if Allah wills, to ... after we agreed yesterday on everything you said.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you.
The questioner : ... .
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.