A discussion on the ruling concerning two Muslim judges who judged a case by other than the law of Allah, but one of them considered it permissible while the other did not

The Shaykh : Go ahead, now explain to me what is the addition you see beyond this description I mentioned to you just now: two men judged by a ruling contrary to the Shari'ah of Allah. One of them acknowledges to Allah that he is mistaken and that the ruling of Allah is the truth. The other says, "No, this ruling is my choice and I decide," and so on. So, in my view, this second one is an apostate from his religion, while that one is a Muslim but a sinner, and it is sufficient for him to have the saying of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): as you know, and so on. So, what is the addition that you see? And may Allah reward you with good.
The student : The addition is in the first type you mentioned, that the judge who does not judge by what Allah has revealed is of two types: a judge.

The Shaykh : I am not speaking about the judge. May Allah guide you.
The student : Shaykh, this is a discussion, and I must present my entire opinion; do not restrict me to one thing.

The Shaykh : My brother, I want the answer to my question. May Allah guide you. I do not want a lecture from you.
The student : It is not a lecture, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : I want the answer to my question, and perhaps you have understood the question?
The student : What is the difference between the one who says, "This is not the ruling of Allah," and the difference between the one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed but intends the ruling of Allah?

The Shaykh : Both judged by other than what Allah has revealed.
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : But the reality in the depths of each of their hearts differs from the other. One of them believes that what he judged by, which is contrary to the Shari'ah of Allah, is a mistake, and that the Shari'ah of Allah is the correct one.
The student: All right.

The Shaykh : The other says, "No, the Shari'ah of Allah is not suitable for this time now." So I say this one is a disbeliever by disbelief of apostasy, and that one is a disbeliever by practical disbelief.
The student : It is not apostasy.

The Shaykh : Yes, it is practical disbelief. So now, what is the addition you have regarding this picture?
The student: All right.
Another student: An addition, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Just, just.
The student : I am afraid for the Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Do not be afraid; I am not feeling what you are doing. Yes.
The student : The judge who judges by what Allah has revealed and believes that the ruling of Allah is better than his ruling.

The Shaykh : I said the judge? You have returned, my brother. You now have a picture in your mind that you are talking about. Leave that picture aside for now. Take and give with your companion so that you benefit from him and he benefits from you, if Allah wills. We have two Muslim judges, Muslims who testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. They judged in one matter with a ruling contrary to the Shari'ah. One of them, in the depths of his heart, admits that his ruling is a mistake because the correct one is the ruling of Allah. The other says, "No, the ruling of Allah is not suitable now." We say this one is a disbeliever by disbelief of apostasy, and that one is by practical disbelief. You say, "No," and you have another addition. So, for the third time, I say, please hold on to this addition. What is it?
The student : If the judge who judged by other than what Allah has revealed and believes that the ruling of Allah is better than his ruling, he may be a disbeliever if he makes this ruling a general binding law for the people. But this is just talk.

The Shaykh : Your saying "may" — are you giving politics in your time?!
The student : I worked in politics one day.
Another student: We are talking in the discussion.

The Shaykh : Perhaps, my brother, what does "perhaps" benefit? We are now in the midst of doubt.
The student : "Perhaps" is for possibility, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : What is this? What is the difference?
The student : It is possible that he does not make it so.

The Shaykh : My brother, what is the difference between possibility and doubt? We now want to say "it is possible." I am not saying "it is possible." I am saying that this one who judged by other than what Allah has revealed and believes that this ruling is not suitable is certainly eternally in the Fire, and the second one is certainly not eternally in the Fire. The research is specifically about this detail. But you say "may." What does "may" mean? This is the talk of politicians. "May" stretches and shortens as you wish. This is not permissible in scientific research. Please.
The student : "May" here, Shaykh, I said it in the sense of: either it is possible that he judges, the judge judges by what Allah has revealed and does not make it a binding law, or it is possible that he judges by other than what Allah has revealed and makes it a binding law.
Another student: "May" came regarding the ruling that he is a disbeliever by creedal disbelief or not, not regarding this detail.
The student : I am not saying regarding creedal disbelief.
Another student: From the context of your speech, is it not so, my Shaykh? He gave it to prove the ruling: is he a disbeliever by creedal disbelief or by practical disbelief?
The student : No, I did not say that. I said, "It is possible he judges by other than what Allah has revealed. It is possible he judges by other than what Allah has revealed and makes it a binding law. It is possible he judges by other than what Allah has revealed."

The Shaykh : My brother, we have a real case. Let us leave the law. We are telling you: two men, two Muslim judges, judged in one matter. Do not put a stick in the wheel, may Allah bless you, and say "he may make it a law."
The student : Shaykh, these pictures exist, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : My brother, that is another research. We are now in this small detail. We take this small detail as a stepping stone to reach something greater than it.
The student : Let us reach the greater one. We now want the judge.

The Shaykh : If this simple detail requires us to sit and discuss it for an hour and say "may" and "may" and so on, for what purpose?
The student : The judge who made this change a general binding law and obligates it upon the people, and even if he says in his heart and with his tongue, "The ruling of Allah is better than my ruling," what do you say about him?

The Shaykh: All right.
The student : This picture.

The Shaykh : What is my speech?
The student : This picture is the subject of our discussion.

The Shaykh : My brother, do not make it so. You are not answering the picture. You are still saying "he made it a law" or "he did not make it a law." This is not my research. The word "law" has not yet come out of my mouth. What came out of my mouth is: two Muslim judges who judge, in their claim, by what Allah has revealed, but in one judgment they judged by other than the law of Allah. But one of them considered it permissible in his heart, and the other did not. This issue, despite its clarity, does not receive an answer from you.
The student : There is a difference.

The Shaykh : How many times did I mention the difference there?
The student : O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : How many times did I mention the difference there? And we are demanding the difference from you.
The student : Shaykh, I support you in this.
Another student: But you place.
The student : When I said, "People, let us understand," when I said "the difference," it means that I support the Shaykh that he distinguished between them, and I also support the Shaykh in distinguishing between them.

The Shaykh : I do not want a difference between them.
The student : You said that there is an addition.

The Shaykh : If it were.
The student : Yes, now this addition, do you agree with the Shaykh, or is it an addition that the Shaykh proceeds with in the research? If you say you agreed with the Shaykh and there is an addition, the Shaykh is demanding this addition.

The Shaykh : Yes, and it has become three times that we demand this addition, and you do not present it.
The student : So, do you believe that there is a difference between the one who judges while he believes that he considers this ruling permissible, and the other who does not consider it permissible but rather erred in a certain case once or twice, as you mentioned? Is there a difference between this and that?

The Shaykh : There is an addition.
The student : First of all, there is a difference. There is a difference.

The Shaykh : Yes, he admitted it.
The student : Okay, do you have an addition to this speech, or do you agree with the Shaykh?
Another student: I agree with the Shaykh.
The student : Then let us proceed, Shaykh.

The Shaykh : So, merely judging by other than what Allah has revealed in a specific detail does not necessitate that we rule that this one who judged by other than what Allah has revealed is a disbeliever apostate from his religion, correct?
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : Okay, what? Did the tape end?
The student : Replace it.

The Shaykh : The point is, we say, and I said this previously, but the statement was lost in this discussion, so it must be repeated: these two judged by another ruling in another case, in another judgment, they also erred and transgressed, meaning their violation of the Shari'ah was repeated. But each believes the opposite of the other. One still has the belief of disbelief in his heart, saying, "This is not suitable." The other says, "I am mistaken, but may Allah curse the soul that commands evil, bribery, is it bribery or not, and so on." Due to one of the causes, the repeated judgment by other than what Allah has revealed, does it differ?
The student : They differ.

The Shaykh: All right, go ahead.
The student : Meaning, they differ between the one who said.

The Shaykh : I do not mean, I fear.
The student : I support you.

The Shaykh : I thought you had a companion, meaning, when you said it differs. Well, in that case, I will now conclude the research on this topic so that we arrive at a result. No matter how many times a ruling is repeated by two judges other than what Allah has revealed, we must look at what is in their hearts so that we can say, "This one is a disbeliever with the disbelief of apostasy in the sight of Allah," and "This one is a disbeliever with practical disbelief in the sight of Allah." Do you agree? I believe we have now reached a very important point, and praise be to Allah, there is no disagreement.