Is the one who orders people to commit sins, for example by establishing a money changer, considered to have deemed this permissible, such that he is declared a disbeliever?

The questioner : Some say that the one who declares a young Muslim disbeliever for ordering...

The Shaykh : ...the one who orders...

The questioner : ...a young man and orders people to deal in such a manner, this is equivalent to deeming it permissible. Likewise, the one who orders the establishment of a money changer is equivalent to deeming it permissible.

The Shaykh : O our brothers, do not be deceived by words. What is the difference between a person who tells a rich man, "Open a tavern in this country or this neighborhood because the market is thriving," and a rich man who acts on his own impulse and opens taverns in the country or the neighborhood? What is the difference? The difference is only that one is a command by his word and the other is an action. So this one is worse than the second.

The questioner : The sinfulness is the same.

The Shaykh : So then.

The questioner : Is this equivalent to deeming it permissible?

The Shaykh : Be patient, no, my brother, this is not a matter of derivation, it is not a matter of independent legal reasoning, because the most dangerous of the legal rulings is declaring a Muslim a disbeliever. The most dangerous thing is declaring a Muslim a disbeliever. So now I have brought you an example: a rich man opens a tavern on his own, meaning from himself, no one orders him to do so, and another rich man is ordered by someone else to open a tavern. Which is worse?

The questioner : The one who opened it on his own.

The Shaykh : Okay, is this person a disbeliever?

The questioner : Of course, if he deems it permissible.

The Shaykh : If the same ruling is applied to the one who orders, there is no difference. May Allah bless you. Do not be deceived by words, otherwise you will apply the "cotton or lead" trick that small children apply to each other. For example, I surprise my classmate by saying, "I will trick you: is a qintar of cotton heavier or a qintar of lead?" No, they say lead. What is it? The weight is the same, but he took the word, he took what? The word. Cotton and lead, my brother, the weight is the same. Cotton could be mountains, but lead could be a small box, but the weight is a qintar.

The questioner : O Shaykh, if I know that this is forbidden.

The Shaykh : My brother, may Allah be pleased with you. If you see the fornicator and the thief, may Allah bless you, and you warned him and forbade him, and so on, what is your position toward him afterwards?

The questioner : Okay, how about the one who does not judge by what Allah has revealed, after...

The Shaykh : You did not answer me, may Allah guide you. You did not answer me. Now, there are people who persist in sin.

The questioner : But the one who commits a major sin is not a disbeliever.

The Shaykh : No, there are people who persist in sin. Answer me.

The questioner : No, of course there are.

The Shaykh : Okay, I advised him and preached to him, but he did not take heed. What is your ruling on him? Do you declare him a disbeliever?

The questioner : No, of course not. Even if he persists in it, the one who commits a major sin is not considered a disbeliever.

The Shaykh : Why do you not declare him a disbeliever? What is the barrier?

The questioner : Because he did not deem it permissible.

The Shaykh : He did not deem what permissible? In his heart or in his action?

The questioner : Of course, in his heart.

The Shaykh : How do you know?

The questioner : Because he must utter it, hypothetically, meaning...

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : You want him to utter this order, that he deems this order permissible.

The Shaykh : I am asking you, how do you know? At the moment I said, "I am with you," when I said, "You did not deem it permissible," how do you know?

The questioner : Because he did not utter it.

The Shaykh : Good. Have those whom we want to declare disbelievers explicitly stated that they deem it permissible? If they explicitly stated that they deem it permissible, the case is closed. But has the matter reached this point, my brother, regarding the majority of rulers who rule by other than what Allah has revealed? The ruling that these extremists issue is based on their actions. Therefore, I hope you do not forget this detailed lesson: what is applied to an individual among the ruled is applied to an individual among the rulers. There is absolutely no difference. This usurer whom you advised and warned, and he persisted in his usury, you say, "I do not declare him a disbeliever." Why? Because he did not deem it permissible. How do you know he did not deem it permissible? He did not tell you. Because this is a matter of the heart, and I did not reveal his heart. So likewise, every one who deems an action permissible that contradicts the Shari'ah of Allah the Exalted and Majestic, if we do not know that he deemed it permissible in his heart, we do not declare him a disbeliever.