Continuation of the discussion on the ruling of image-making and conveying the call to Islam via television and video.

The Shaykh : ... but by a lawful means or an unlawful means? That is the issue.

The questioner : ... The topic is long, I have commented.

The Shaykh : Take your time, take your time, I am now bringing up four or five examples, to the extent that I could grasp from the first to the second to the third to the last. These phenomena that you emphasize as having an impact—we do not disagree with you on them, especially since we are from the same country, and our country all says: "The eye is a ladle of speech"; is that not so?

The questioner: Correct.

The Shaykh : That is it, but this image should be permissible and not—what?—forbidden, falling under the general rule. So I said at the beginning, andThe Shaykh : I confirmed at the end, and we agreed and gave examples of IDs and passports and so on. So now you gave some examples and attributed them to me, may Allah reward you with good; like "The Rites of Hajj" and "The Description of the Prophet's Prayer." I say there is no television that broadcasts to people a scholar who applies for them the rites of Hajj on television; because most of them come not knowing how to perform Hajj, most of them do not perform the prayer properly, etc. I brought this as an example to clarify that television, indeed images in general, are not such that every part falling under the prohibition is forbidden, but it has exceptions. When we want to make an exception here, the matter requires knowledge and mindfulness of Allah. And when you said, for example, in some of what you said that it may be affected by arrogance and the teacher is affected by arrogance, your example was like the one who carries dates to Hajar. Why? Because I mentioned this, I mentioned the hadith that he who turns away the hearts of people and helped the man in mentioning this very word that it is a man, and therefore I said that he who delivers the lessons is exposed to fitnah (trial); there is no doubt in that. But which of the two matters is more apparent for fitnah, more prominent for it, and stronger for it? I am now giving you a very simple example. The orator when he ascends the pulpit; is he not in a place of fitnah?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : Fine, but now—look at the difference—the orator who preaches on the pulpit like the Prophet's pulpit is at three levels, and the one who almost strikes the sky with his head is at ten levels. Are they equal, for example? No. So we must consider these causes, which are phenomena, that may have an impact or may not. But just as our country also says: "Stay away from evil and sing to it," and this means what? ... Likewise, it is taken from his saying (peace be upon him): This is it. So may Allah bless you for the examples and parts you mentioned first, second, and third. If they give permissibility to television in general—and I do not think you say that—then we have agreed. And if they lead to it being permissible in specific forms, like the form mentioned by the honorableThe Shaykh : , and like the two forms you quoted from me, then this is not a point of disagreement. The point of disagreement is to use television in general.

The Shaykh : Hashim: ...

The Shaykh : ... .

The questioner : That due to the importance of this issue, because our brother who mentioned the programs he presents, I think they have benefit and have this exception, as long as it is a debate, and then I mentioned an important point, which is the most important thing, that we must distinguish between image-making, this image-making is not fixed ... on a tape ...

The Shaykh : Yes, this is what needs a response, this is what needs a response, from the things you mentioned, Doctor, first, second, and third. That is, this image that was filmed and stored; what is its name?

Another questioner : Its name is an image.

The questioner : It is not named an image unless it comes out on video; as for a tape, it has no benefit, like this tape recorded on a cassette and placed there, it has no benefit unless I use it, and if I put it on television, it is a passing thing, there is nothing, the reverence is gone, and the fixed thing that I see in an image, meaning a fixed, stable one, is gone.

The Shaykh : I do not think you answered me.

The questioner : It is not named an image unless.

The Shaykh : Doctor, stay with me, stay with me—and peace be upon you and Allah's mercy and blessings.
Your distinction between the image that became hidden, and when you wish you bring it out; this does not justify saying this image is permissible, and this one is permissible to film; and now.


Another questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : No, allow me, let me complete my conversation with the Doctor here.

Another questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : How?

Another questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : I mean, I do not want to throw it away immediately after the time passes.

The questioner : Is there room?

The Shaykh : Yes, why? To get rid of the crowd we endured.


The Shaykh : I want to say—may Allah bless you—the person must not stop at formalities; because the Shari'ah has educated us, refined us, and forbidden us from stopping at formalities. Now we take the first characteristic, this one who filmed an image of his son; did he do right or wrong?

The questioner : An image of what, O our Shaykh?

The Shaykh : An image of his son.

The questioner : A fixed image of his son, meaning a fixed photographic one?

The Shaykh : Not yet, not yet, an image of his son, step by step. This one who filmed an image of his son in the sense that he filmed an image of his son, not to register it in an ID or something similar, but just for the sake of remembrance, something like that. Did he do right or wrong?

The questioner : He did wrong, because there is no benefit.

The Shaykh : I am not asking you about the benefit.

The questioner : No, he did wrong.

The Shaykh : "The best of speech is what is brief and instructive." Did he do wrong?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : He hid it in the box; did he do right or wrong?

The questioner : No, he did wrong from the start.

The Shaykh : So does this error extend?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : Fine, and the ruling is the same for television—may Allah bless you. So your reliance on the fact that this image became thrown on the tape or something similar; this does not make the initial image-making permissible. No, the original ruling is that it falls under the prohibition, and what is built upon the forbidden is forbidden. This is first. The image of the son was hidden, but he is ready every hour to take it and look at it, and remember, especially if what? Allah has taken his trust, etc. He also fills it with memories, etc., then what? He throws it in the box. These are means to divert Muslims from obeying the Messenger (peace be upon him) in his prohibition of image-making in general. So the fact that the image was public at first and became hidden at the end does not mean that the first became permissible. No, it was forbidden and remains forbidden.
This is said for every image as long as it has not disappeared, and this video image—if the expression is correct—is worse than photographic images; because the comparison in it is much more than the comparison in static photographic images; because you see a person moving, eating, drinking, etc. And you took one point in your previous research, which is that there is no reverence. When the scholars forbid image-making, they establish that the cause of image-making has two causes, the first of which is mentioned in the hadith, which is his saying (peace and blessings be upon him): , and the other cause is that it was a cause one day for the worship of idols besides Allah (Blessed and Exalted is He). So for a person to film an image, and you exclude that there is reverence in it, this does not align with the ruling of the Shari'ah forbidding images from the perspective of sadd al-dhara'i' (blocking the means to harm), from the perspective of sadd al-dhara'i'. So if image-making is forbidden in general, and then we find an image that does not come to mind as being revered besides Allah; this does not mean that this is permissible; because the Lawgiver forbids a thing not for its own sake, but because it may lead to other forbidden things. So may Allah bless you, Doctor; we must look at the issue from all its sides, not just look at this image itself, is there reverence in it or not?
The image that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) had hung, which was embroidered on her curtain, or on her armrest and her pillow; do you think that Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) held this image in high regard? Of course not; but he (peace be upon him) said: , . These general statements must not be ignored or nullified; because we found there exceptions that the Shari'ah helped us to exclude, so we stopped at them and preserved the original principle, which is that all image-making is forbidden, with no difference between a hand-drawn image, a photographic or solar image, or video images as they call them today in this age. Please go ahead.

The questioner: His EminenceThe Shaykh : I mean, regarding those who say that photographic images or video images did not exist in the time of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)?

The Shaykh : Yes, that is the people's doubt.

The questioner : So are they to be judged by analogy to what existed in the time of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)?

The Shaykh : They are not to be judged by analogy, and complete your statement.

The questioner : That is what they say—may Allah bless you—and in the time of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him), there were two types of images: the image of a mirror or water and the like, and the images made by drawing and carving. Some people analogized them to the image in a mirror, considering it to be the same creation that Allah created, which is imprinted on the mirror or on this polished surface, and there is no such comparison in it. It is more inclined to be analogized to the image in a mirror, because it does not display human creativity or human effort... and the hadith, as you have mentioned, is —yes—. So they said this image is more like the image in a mirror, because there is no human effort in it that displays human skill, which would be imitating Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He). Those who analogized it to an image more like carving and drawing, is that correct? Yes.

The Shaykh : Are you finished?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : First—may Allah bless you—the issue does not involve analogy, neither negative nor positive. The evidence for this is the one who takes pictures with the device, which is this photographic machine. What is its name in the language? And what is the name of the effect of this device in the language?

The questioner : A picture.

The Shaykh : So he is a photographer, and that image? Good. So now, if we take his statement (peace be upon him): , as Arabs we understand the speech of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him). Does this photographer, whom we are currently debating, fall under it or not?

The questioner : By the general wording, it is possible.

The Shaykh : .

The questioner : ... If you please, let us detail these specifics. We say that the image in a mirror is also called an image.

The Shaykh : No, is he called a photographer?

The questioner : The one who made it, the person does not hold it now and make it, meaning...

The Shaykh : You answer me and spare yourself. Is the one who stood in front of the mirror called a photographer?

The questioner : He is a photographed person, like the person who stood in front of the camera.

The Shaykh : May Allah forgive you, may Allah forgive you. "The best speech is that which is brief and instructive." Is the one who stood in front of the mirror called a photographer?

The questioner: No.

The Shaykh : The matter is over, I beg you, I beg you, because rushing matters means we will be deprived of the benefit of the research.

The questioner : May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh : So if you believe with me completely, as I think, that the one who stood in front of the mirror is not called a photographer, neither linguistically nor by custom.

The questioner : I am sorry for the interruption.

The Shaykh : But I, I am afraid.

The questioner : We have prolonged this for you.

The Shaykh : You are rushing me, and if it were right for one of us to rush the other, it would be right for the Shaykh, andThe Shaykh : like you, but we say, as a matter of debate, if it were permissible for one to rush the other, it would be even more permissible for the Shaykh to rush. But I am not rushing you, and you are not rushing me, rather we are understanding each other. I said earlier, if you believe with us that the one who stands in front of the mirror and sees his image is not a photographer; the case is closed from a specific side. But I fear, I fear that you do not believe with me in this. Do you believe with me in this? So that we can proceed?

The questioner : May Allah bless you! I say.

The Shaykh : I ask Allah to guide you, I ask you.

The questioner : Detailing, meaning? No, I mean, detail it.

The Shaykh : How?

The questioner : I say: No, but I mean, detail it.

The Shaykh : Ah, please, detail whatever you wish.

The questioner : This is what I want, I mean, I am sorry for the interruption, I do not want to interrupt you—may Allah bless you.

The Shaykh : No, it is not an interruption.

The questioner : Just a moment ago, meaning.

The Shaykh : Rather, if I ask you, I hope your answer will be clear; because at first you said no.

The questioner : This is what I want to detail.

The Shaykh : This is not a photographer.

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : And now what do you say?

The questioner : I say no, with detail—may Allah bless you.

The Shaykh: Please proceed.

The Shaykh : I mean, the image in the mirror is called an image, and the video image is called an image, and the one who does the video photography is called a photographer, this is correct.

The Shaykh : This is a repetition of the previous statement!

The questioner : The one who does the video photography is called a photographer as well; but regarding the mirror, there is an image of the mirror that is called an image; as for the one who stood in front of it, he is called a photographed person, like the person who stood in front of the mirror is called a photographed person. Here the photographer is not present. This is what I want to say, meaning, just a moment ago.

The Shaykh : Take your time a little, are you finished?

The questioner : This is what I want to say.

The Shaykh : May Allah forgive you, Professor! You have brought us back to where we started, and then taken us to what we had not reached. Our research was about the machine, this solar photographic machine, so you brought us back to video. And according to what I asked you and you answered first: Is this person who stood in front of the mirror a photographer? You answered me first, no, he is not a photographer. Then you returned and said: I say no, but with detail. When you detailed it, you linked the image to video, and did not link it to this solar machine, this photographic machine. What do they call it?
Abu Layla : A camera.

The Shaykh : A camera. So let us stay with the camera now. We agreed that this person who stands in front of the mirror is not a photographer. And I am not going far from you to say: that this image in the mirror is an image, so I will not debate you on this. And therefore we do not argue about a matter on which we agree; because we agree—praise be to Allah. But we discuss a matter in which we may differ. And now it has become clear to us that—praise be to Allah—we agree that the one who stands in front of the mirror and sees his image in it is not a photographer, and that the one who photographs people with the camera is called a photographer, and the effect of his photography is called an image. Good. Now we leave the photographer on whom we agreed is not a photographer, which is the one who stands in front of the mirror. We do not speak about this in terms of Arabic style. We agreed that he is a photographed person. And we should agree that he falls under the generality of his statement (peace be upon him): ; because it is a general text from which it is not permissible to deviate.

The questioner : The one standing in front of the mirror...

The Shaykh: What is it?

The questioner : We agreed that the one standing in front of the mirror is a photographer.

The Shaykh : No, no, we agreed that he is not a photographer; as for the image, it is an image. So let us leave that side to say now: the one who photographs with the camera is a photographer without doubt, and that he falls under the generality of his statement (peace be upon him): . Likewise, he falls under the generality of his statement (peace be upon him): . Up to here, the speech in terms of Arabic style is going smoothly?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : Good. Now, what took this image out of these general statements? What took it out? Nothing. I say that two things took it out. First, a factual reality, which is the trial of people with this photography by camera, until the camera became a means of amusement. Small children hang it on their shoulder and photograph whatever they wish, whether it is lawful or forbidden. So the people today, among those who claim knowledge, have been overcome by the love of making things easy in matters where there is no ease in the Shari'ah, even at the expense of the Shari'ah texts. And therefore they try to pass off this widespread violation today with various interpretations. So I believe, what led people to exclude images and photographers by camera from prohibition? It is that it is a general trial!
The second point, which we read from the time of Bukhiti, the Mufti of Egypt, and then its influence spread to many of the noble Muslim scholars, is that they said: This does nothing except press the button. In my view, this is a strange stubbornness. They do not look at the people and the efforts of people over the years that combined and cooperated until the matter reached the point of pressing the button, and then the image appears clearly, and more clearly than the hand-drawn image. Then, do you think the image would appear as this photographer wants without aiming the camera at the target he wants to photograph? Of course, the answer is no. Why do these people ignore this and say he did nothing except press the button?
My brother, it is cooperation with the photographers, these disbelievers. From hundreds of years ago, when they first invented this device, the image would not come out clear. It needed developing and I don't know what else, and they would take your picture and tell you, "Come back in a day or two." And now, a press of the button and the image comes out immediately. They completely ignored this cooperation and said this photographer did nothing except press the button! And those who photographed this machine and brought it into existence after it was non-existent, they are not given any credit. Finally, this man made the camera stay here to photograph this person, and he pressed the button, and his picture did not come out. So, it is he who is photographing! Therefore, it is a common custom that no one can deny that the one who photographs with the camera is called a photographer; because an action came from him. The only difference between this photographer and the old photographer is that the old one would take the pen or the brush and place the subject in front of him, look at him carefully, and strain his eyes until the image comes out as close as possible to the reality of the person being photographed. And I—as it is said, "If I forget, I do not forget"—when I was in primary school, the teacher of drawing and mathematics had a hobby in photography.

The Shaykh : Hashim: Was it in Syria?

The Shaykh : Yes?

The Shaykh : Hashim: Was the primary school in Syria?

The Shaykh : Yes, in Syria, not in Albania, because I left Albania when I was nine years old and I knew nothing. The point is, when we came to Syria and entered primary school, the teacher of drawing and mathematics had a hobby in drawing. When the students went out for the break, he would sit in front of the board, which in some countries is called the blackboard, and take the chalk—this chalk—and see a boy whose appearance he liked, and he would call him: "Come here, boy." He would place him in front of him, and take the chalk, and in moments, the image would be what? The boy. You look at the boy, and by Allah, this boy, this is a skill that is not like the skill of another person who does not have this hobby and does not have this mastery. Do you think these two photographers, one doing manual photography, would go beyond the prohibition because one photographed quickly and the other photographed slowly? I do not think so—also—this is a point where there is absolutely no disagreement.
Here we pause a little regarding the imitation that these people deny, who say that photography with the camera does not contain imitation. Where is the imitation in this man I described to you who took the chalk like this and whitened the board, and the boy is on the board? Where is the imitation in this? In other words; is this imitation internal or external?

The questioner : External.

The Shaykh : External. We leave this image and take the sculptor who carves the idol and the statue, and continues with it for long nights and days, and the idol comes out exactly as he wishes. I do not know if some of the attendees remember that Italian sculptor who carved an idol, and when he was pleased with his carving and that it only needed the soul to be blown into it and for it to speak, he said to it, "What?" He said to it, "Speak." It did not speak! So what did he do to it? He smashed it! He smashed it; this is an example of a statue. What is the imitation of Allah—Mighty and Majestic—in this statue that he continued carving until he was pleased with its carving for days and nights?
The imitation is in the form; as for the brain? The intestines? The heart? There is nothing inside at all; so the imitation is external and apparent, and it is known whether it is embroidery, photography on paper, embroidery on cloth, or carving of stone or similar. All this imitation is external and not real; therefore, I am very sorry that there are some scholars for whom I read an article a long time ago when the Al-Azhar magazine was called Noor al-Islam, and he was writing in itThe Shaykh : Al-Dajwi and his like. One of them wrote an article—regrettably!—in which he goes to the permissibility of idols—carving idols—, not only the permissibility of photography on paper, no, he mentioned two opinions, and then chose from the two opinions the one furthest from the Sunnah, that the scholars differed on the forbidden images; are they all forbidden or only the three-dimensional ones that have a shadow? He mentioned that the Maliki school permits images on paper or on clothes, and they restrict the prohibition to statues and idols. So what did this jurist say, regrettably?
He said, after adopting this opinion and not paying attention to the hadiths of tearing the curtain of Lady Aisha and the like, and the story of Jibril and his refusal to enter the house, yes, and his order to change the image until it becomes like a tree, and it was not a statue or an idol, but it was on the cloth. He turned away from all these hadiths; why?
Because he wants to make room for the poor artists who are living with the complex of prohibition. Most scholars say idols are forbidden with one voice, but this image has disagreement; so since this issue has disagreement, we left it. But what is the trick to get out of the opinion of the prohibition of statues? This mufti said that the artist—so he says—is permitted to make the statue exactly as he wishes, and then dig a hole in the top of its head until it reaches the place of its brain, and there is nothing of that at all, it is only a deaf stone, and thus there is no imitation; because this creation does not live in this image. But without a doubt, he feels, like every person, that this statue has fallen from the eyes of the artists; because it became what? It has a defect. He said: and the solution is easy, he comes and takes a "wig" and covers it on the head, and the defect is gone, and by Allah's will, the idol is in the most beautiful state!!
All of this is proof of the truthfulness of the Messenger—peace be upon him—in many hadiths, among them: .
- Mubarak, O Abu Layla, by Allah's will this is a new garment! "You wore new, you lived wisely, and you died a martyr" -.
So the point—may Allah bless you—is that all of this is a deception of the Sharia rulings, and we exit the problem: every image, whether manual, by camera, by video, by carving, or similar; all of it is forbidden, except what is necessitated by dire necessity or pressing need.
And finally: It is necessary to point out that this press of the button reminds me of another button, which is that the Europeans—as you know—created huge machines, and created furnaces in which they pour iron or copper or anything, and press a button from here, "wrrr wrrr wrrr wrrr", and out comes an idol there. This idol by this method did not exist in the time of the Messenger—peace be upon him—and this image by this method did not exist in the time of the Messenger—peace be upon him; but what is the difference, my brothers?
The difference is like that poet said:
"The causes multiplied, but death is one"
And you know two hadiths—and with them I conclude this speech:
The first hadith is his saying (peace and blessings be upon him): . Its meaning is well known, if Allah wills, and it means to melt them. Why did the Jews consider the melted fat permissible? Because in their opinion, they had not eaten the fat. Allah forbade them the fat. What kind of fat? The kind that is solid, especially in severe cold, where it retains a specific shape. But when they put it in the pots and large cauldrons and lit the fire underneath, it heated up and melted, taking on a new shape. Did changing this shape make the forbidden thing permissible for them?
The answer is no. The fat remains fat with all its properties. Also, this image is an image, and the one who made it is an image-maker, whether on paper with a pencil or ink, or with paint, etc., or an image that he embroidered or carved on stone or iron, etc. All these things fall under the name of images.
Finally, what appears to you is that these are forms from which Islam disavows itself. The evidence for this is this hadith and the second hadith. But I am keeping this one in reserve until I give you an example that occurred to me once on a journey of mine when I was returning from Aleppo to Damascus after going out for da'wah (calling to Islam). A young man rode with me and raised with me the topic of these photographic images. We discussed it—the road from Aleppo to Damascus is four hours—and I finally said to him: "They claim! And I mean what I say, because it is a fictional story that came from my mind." I said: "They claim that a noble, distinguished shaykh visited a diligent student of his at his home. When he sat in the head of the place, he raised his eyes and saw his own picture hanging on the wall. He called out to him and said: 'O Abu So-and-so, you are a righteous and good student, and what Allah willed! And you have heard in my lessons that images are forbidden, and that angels do not enter a house in which there is an image. So what do you think about having placed my picture and hung it in a place?' He said: 'O His Eminence...'"The Shaykh : "...for the sake of remembering you and taking inspiration from your character, etc." He said: "No, this is never permissible for you." So the obedient, dutiful student quickly took down the picture. And in the Syrian expression, days passed and days came, and the story was forgotten. And he returned...The Shaykh : ...and visited his student again. He sat in the same place, and lo, he saw the picture—again—in its place. He said to him: "What is the matter, So-and-so? I remember you responding to my call and taking down my picture. How did you put it back?" He said: "May Allah bless you. We understood from you the distinction between the hand-made image and the photographic image. That was a hand-made image, but this is a photographic image. What is your opinion of this appearance? Does the fitnah (trial) not occur with this one rather than that one? We seek help from Allah!"
As for the second hadith—and it is the last one—his saying (peace be upon him): . Even though, as some schools of jurisprudence say to this day, this is a valid marriage. Why? Because the conditions of marriage were present: the guardian, the consent of the wife, the upright witnesses, and so on. But the intention behind it was to make permissible what Allah has forbidden. So, scheming to circumvent what Allah has forbidden by any means is forbidden. Remember what the camera is: it is the Jews' scheme in melting the fats. Please, and please if you have something to say.

The Shaykh : Hashim: By Allah, we have benefited greatly, O His Eminence...The Shaykh .

The Shaykh : ...May Allah bless you. This is from your generosity.

The questioner : ...But we want to leave with a benefit we have gained now, which is: since photography for necessity is permitted for the ID card, nationality, and camera; likewise, there are benefits from television, at least religious benefits, such as refuting doubts, or removing forbidden things by refuting them or criticizing them with evidence from the Sunnah. This means that photography for necessities is free from blame, while believing in its prohibition.

The Shaykh : ...This means repeating what we agreed upon previously.

The Shaykh : ...Hashim.

The Shaykh : ...But I want to insist on another point that we must observe, starting with passports or personal IDs. I believe that if it is possible to do without photographic images for personal IDs or official passports in the desired Islamic state, then we must do without them. But if there is no alternative to them, then we say: "Necessities permit the prohibited." And may Allah reward you with all good.

The questioner : ...That is enough, praise be to Allah. May Allah reward you with all good.

The Shaykh : May Allah reward you.

The Shaykh : Hashim: We are very happy.

The Shaykh : ...May Allah make you happier.

The Shaykh : Hashim: May Allah gather us and you in goodness.

The Shaykh : ...And may Allah bless you and your life.

The Shaykh : Hashim: May Allah bless you, and peace be upon you and the mercy of Allah.

The Shaykh: And upon you peace.


The Shaykh : Yes?

The questioner : ...Our children here are insisting that you visit us in Sudan.

The Shaykh : ...By Allah, I wish that could happen, but it requires something of a private session, for: first, so that you can get to know my circumstances, and second, so that I can get to know the atmosphere you have, to see the environment that helps me benefit more and more from my presence among you.

The Shaykh : Hashim: If Allah wills, may Allah bless you.

The Shaykh : ...And perhaps we will be able to—may Allah will it—or this session will be—may Allah will it—in this season.

The questioner : ...But your student Ali al-Khashan lived with us. He lived with us, and we want a brief visit, my brother. So he sat with us and knew the atmosphere of our country and its need for people like you, and the atmosphere is good—may Allah will it—and suits you.

The Shaykh : ...This is true, but I know, and I fear this example will turn me away from you more, and I am attached to you, because he fled from you out of love for you!

The Shaykh : Hashim: He fled from us?!

The Shaykh : ...And he is a young man, so what do we say about...The Shaykh ؟

The questioner : ...No, he cannot say he fled from something in the religion. He cannot say that; because he found responsiveness and the people loved him.

The Shaykh : ...No, he fled from the atmosphere that you do not control, and he desires the atmosphere that you do control.

The questioner : ...Yes, may Allah reward you with all good. We are happy...

The Shaykh : ...In any case, we hope—may Allah will it—we will understand each other on this point.

The questioner : ...May Allah will it. May Allah thank you. Peace be upon you.

The Shaykh : Welcome, and upon you be peace and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.