The questioner’s praise of the Shaykh regarding the issue that one who does not judge by what Allah has revealed is either a disbeliever in practice or in belief, and that this is the statement of the scholars.

The questioner : May Allah bless you.

The Shaykh : And may Allah bless you.

The questioner : If we have finished with this matter,

The Shaykh : Please, you still have a quarter of an hour or a third of an hour left.

The questioner : We will come to the issue of issues,

The Shaykh : The issue,

The questioner : The issues,

The questioner : Yes, exactly.

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.

The questioner : As in this era,

The Shaykh : Meaning, have you finished with what you have in the book? Have you concluded?

The questioner : I have not concluded.

The Shaykh : And so,

The questioner : But there is an issue that is the core of the book. I would like to take advantage of the time, since the time is mine, so let us dwell on this issue so that the session is filled with all the matters of declaring someone a disbeliever (takfir).

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.

The questioner : This is the issue you have been dwelling on, which is the issue of one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed, and your distinction between one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed out of denial and deeming it permissible, and one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed without denial or deeming it permissible. This is the opinion you adopted, which is the school of the Salaf in general. I have not found, in what I have looked into, anyone who disagrees with this. For the record, the magazine *Al-Sharq al-Awsat wa al-Muslimun* published an article by you on this matter, and His EminenceThe Shaykh : 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn Baz commented on it with approval, agreement, and support. Then your words and the words ofThe Shaykh : 'Abd al-'Aziz were read to the VirtuousThe Shaykh : Ibn Uthaymeen, and he approved all of it and supported it. So I say,

The Shaykh : May Allah blessThe Shaykh : ...

The questioner : May Allah bless you andThe Shaykh : you and all the scholars of the Sunnah. After that, I say that it is not permissible for the youth to disagree on this serious issue. Do you not see, VirtuousThe Shaykh : one, that this issue is the greatest gateway to rebelling against rulers and sultans, and to the occurrence of dark trials and problems that are not hidden from anyone? And do you not see, before that, that this issue allows for disagreement? Since, in what I have read, I have not found anyone among the scholars who disagrees with this opinion you adopted. It became clear to me that the scholars are in agreement on the opinion you adopted through three ways. The first way is that the scholars and the exegetes did not differ in interpreting the saying of Allah the Exalted: . As for the difference that appeared in their phrasings, it is of the type of difference in variety, not difference in contradiction. Some scholars have explicitly stated that there is no difference among the scholars in interpreting this verse, and I have recorded this in the book. Second, it is not hidden from you that religious innovation (bid'ah) is legislating what Allah has not permitted, and judging by other than what Allah has revealed is legislating what Allah has not permitted, and both are additions to the noble Lawgiver. And the one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed is, in reality, more dangerous than the innovator, because the innovator’s matter may have ended, and I do not think the Muslims would take a ruling from one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed, whereas they would take a ruling from the innovator. Therefore, he says that the innovator is more dangerous to the Muslims than the one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed, because the innovator says that this innovation is from Allah and is part of the Shari'ah, whereas the one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed does not dare to say this; rather, he explicitly states that these laws are the product of humans. Third, the people of the Sunnah agreed that religious innovation is of two types: an innovation that entails disbelief and an innovation that does not entail disbelief. Therefore, if the one who judges by other than what Allah has revealed does so without denial or deeming it permissible, he is not declared a disbeliever and is placed in the position of the innovator in the religion of Allah, Mighty and Majestic. The third way: you know that the people of the Sunnah agreed on not declaring a major sinner a disbeliever. The scholars classified judging by other than what Allah has revealed as one of the major sins, as explicitly stated by the Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, and as transmitted by the Hafiz of the Maghreb, Ibn 'Abd al-Barr, who reported the consensus of the scholars. Therefore, if the consensus is established, is it permissible for anyone to disagree on this serious issue? And before that, do you not see that error in this issue brings much evil and great, dark trials upon the Muslims? May Allah send prayers and blessings upon our Prophet Muhammad, and may Allah bless you and reward you with good.

The Shaykh : May Allah grant you health and benefit you. I say, in response to two points that appeared to me from your speech: The first point is, is it permissible for anyone to disagree? I say, naturally, it is not permissible, except if one is among the sincere scholars of knowledge, who are humble before Allah and fear Him. In that case, he may exercise independent legal reasoning (ijtihad) and disagree. Therefore, we say that some of the Imams may have fallen into religious innovation, but they are not called innovators, because not everything that falls into innovation is covered by it such that the person becomes an innovator. Similarly, one who falls into disbelief is not necessarily said to have been enveloped by it and immersed in it. From this, we find that the methodology of the righteous Salaf is not to declare the misguided sects disbelievers, except those who have clearly manifested their disbelief. There is no doubt that among such sects there are those who have fallen into disbelief, but we do not declare them disbelievers because there is a barrier to declaring someone a disbeliever (takfir), which was mentioned in the folds of your speech, as I recall. This is with regard to your question: is it permissible? The answer is no, except with the condition I mentioned earlier. As for the fact that it brings great evil, there is no doubt or hesitation in that. The unfortunate reality in the Islamic world makes the matter, unfortunately, not theoretical but a practical reality. Many who claim to belong to Islam, and who may belong to the Book and the Sunnah, and who may even belong to the righteous Salaf, but who have not yet known the methodology of the righteous Salaf, have rebelled against the rulers. They were a major cause of the shedding of the blood of Muslims from both sides: those who rebelled and those who were rebelled against. What trial is greater than this trial? I said in much of what we discussed in this matter, and much of it was recorded, that we say: if there were among these rulers one who declared his disbelief in Islam and his apostasy, such that no room remained for interpretation (ta'wil), I say it is not permissible to rebel against them, not from the perspective of the textual evidence, but from the perspective of observing the Islamic rules, one of which is prioritizing the predominant harm over the benefit. This includes what the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) indicated in the hadith: . How much benefit is there in this reform, and how much it facilitates the process of Hajj and the performance of its rites for the pilgrims? The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) did not do this, although he was capable of it in power and strength, and he was established, because Allah had given him victory over the disbelievers in their entirety. But he looked to the distance and said: . So I say, if one of these rulers declared his disbelief to the people, to those who rebel against him? To those who are able to fight them? Where are the Muslims who took at least upon themselves the like of the saying of Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He: ? There is no preparation for this. And I say, on this occasion, and I conclude this speech because the time has ended, that I understand something hidden in the folds of this verse when Allah, Mighty and Majestic, said: . The address was to the first believers who were raised with the Muhammadan upbringing. This address today is not directed to these people, because most of them are deviant and do not deserve such an address. Therefore, we say that if there is a ruler who declares his disbelief, we must prepare ourselves to rebel against him rightfully and be able to fight him. This is sufficient, and praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds.