A discussion on the methodology of the Salaf in affirming the attributes.

The Shaykh : We return to our previous discussion. We must take a point of agreement. Allah the Exalted said: Hearing and Seeing are two attributes of Allah (Mighty and Majestic). What do those who interpret the Hand and the Rising say? What do they say about these two attributes, or is the phrasing different? We repeat your question: Are there reports from the Companions that they interpreted Hearing and Seeing? By what do the Salaf and the Khalaf agree to interpret them? The answer: There are no reports.

The questioner : I believe there is no statement from the Companions and the Successors regarding the interpretation of this verse.

The Shaykh : Very good. So how did the Salaf and the Khalaf agree? How did they agree on not interpreting?

The questioner : I mean, they met like this.

The Shaykh : By chance, meaning without knowledge?

The questioner : Glory be to Allah, it means something where the hearts agreed.

The Shaykh : Ah, meaning without knowledge?

The questioner : I do not know.

The Shaykh : You don't know. You don't know about the thing, it is necessary... a hadith. The real issue is clearer than you imagine. Does Allah the Exalted have an existence?

The questioner : It is self-evident.

The Shaykh : It is self-evident. Is there a text from the Salaf?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : But you have just contradicted your method. Your method is the Qur'an: .

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : And He completed it, meaning the meaning of Hearing and Seeing is understood?

The questioner : He hears with a hearing befitting Him, we do not know how it is...

The Shaykh : Did the Companions say this?

The questioner : No, they did not say this, but when I tell you Hearing and Seeing...

The Shaykh : My dear friend, do not lengthen the explanation. Did the Companions say this?

The questioner : My understanding is that...

The Shaykh : It is not your understanding, it is the understanding of everyone. We are saying the Salaf and the Khalaf, meaning all Muslims agree on interpreting the verse according to its apparent meaning. Why did you not ask about the Salaf here? Where are their reports? Why did I ask you, "Does Allah exist?" This really needs a question. You are right, but if you return to the Qur'an and the decisive evidence on the matter, these decisive evidence are decisive for some people and not decisive for others, because the tool of interpretation is applied to them. So this verse: We said there is no disagreement among Muslims, the Salaf and the Khalaf, all believers believe that Allah is Hearing and Seeing. Here, why was the first question not interpreted? And why was it not delegated? Why do we not apply the tool of destruction here in the name of interpretation or in the name of delegation?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : You did not answer me, may Allah guide you. I am humming about the whole verse and you are humming about the beginning of it. There are two attributes here, there is no dispute between a Salafi and a Khalafi, all of them are free of imperfections, but the dispute is in the affirmation. Does mean "He took possession of" or "He is above"? This is the dispute. As for it being a verse in the Qur'an, three or four verses in the Qur'an, there is no disagreement. Likewise, there is no disagreement in the transcendence But is there a disagreement in the whole verse: The answer: No, no disagreement. Why do you ignore this issue? Now what do you say about this verse? When you believed in it, you did not negate it by interpretation, nor did you deny its meaning by delegation.

The questioner : A response to the deniers of attributes... their understanding agreed with the understanding of the Salaf.

The Shaykh : You want to defend delegation because you have adopted the methodology of defense. It is not I who want to defend; I want to demolish it because it is against the Book and against the Sunnah. When I asked you earlier, "Does Allah exist?" you said: Yes, He exists. So, do you exist or are you missing?

The questioner : Of course, I exist...

The Shaykh : You exist. So how did you make yourself a partner with Allah in existence? Leave it and rest. All the verses are like this. All the verses are like this. What is the problem if I say regarding the saying of Allah the Exalted: His Hands are not like our hands, and the matter is finished? Who is standing in the way?

The questioner : The Salaf did not settle for this understanding.

The Shaykh : And the Salaf did not understand this understanding of Hearing and Seeing.

The questioner : And I mean by the Salaf the Companions.

The Shaykh : And I mean what you intend. What is the difference?

The questioner : I mean that detailing this is possible from later eras.

The Shaykh : In the way of whom? On the brink of a crumbling cliff. The Companions did not speak about Hearing and Seeing. Why do you speak and say it is clear in meaning?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : This is what we want for all the attributes. But we are asking you why here you say it is clear and "there is nothing like Him," and there you say why do we not interpret? Why do you interpret the original?

The questioner : You answered us, Professor, from your saying that we understand these things based on the concepts of the Arabic language. The Arabic language allows both meanings. Hand means power, and hand means the physical hand.

The Shaykh : This is not always the case, may Allah guide us and you. Because when you interpret His Hands, you cannot say His Powers.

The questioner : Of course, my teacher.

The Shaykh : Of course, of course. If not, what is the meaning of His Hands, and and then: These are authentic and explicit hadiths. These are not interpreted here. They are not interpreted as power, nor interpreted as grace. From which interpretation of the interpretations that the later scholars, or the interpreters, or the deniers resorted to? These are not interpreted. It is possible to interpret in some places, but the interpretation there does not negate the attribute. So I remember I asked you, do you believe that Allah has two hands? I did not hear an answer from you, although this verse is not interpreted: .
The Shaykh: And among the wonders of the hadiths of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) is when he said, "I was often asked about this saying," How? My answer to this question is what Imam Malik denied.

The questioner : How?

The Shaykh : How are you asking "how"? First, and second, this hadith confirms the generality of the Qur'anic text .

The questioner : Of course.

The Shaykh : Humans have a right and a left, but Allah This is a confirmation of transcendence. So if Allah has two hands, they do not resemble the hands of the created beings.

The questioner : Is this detail known before Ibn Taymiyyah?

The Shaykh : How is it not? My brother, may Allah guide you.

The questioner : What do the four Imams say about the names and attributes?

The Shaykh : They say so, just as the Salaf say. Belief in the attributes with their true meanings without asking how.

The questioner : The opinion of al-Shafi'i... he said: "Let them pass as they came," and we understand from this phrase that he delegates.

The Shaykh : Well, I understand from this phrase that he does not interpret.

The questioner : He does not interpret.

The Shaykh : Be patient, be patient, may Allah guide you. There are two meanings here. "Let them pass as they came" without understanding, is that not so?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Ah, this is what you say. I say "let them pass as they came" without interpretation, meaning according to their apparent meaning. What do you understand from it? This is the Arabic meaning, and this agrees with the saying of Malik: "The rising is known and the how is unknown," yes.

The questioner : And with the saying of the Salaf.

The Shaykh : He is from the Salaf. He is from the Imams of the Salaf.

The questioner : I mean, if he truly enters into it, regardless of the statement, if he accepts that the second statement, which is letting it pass without negation or interpretation, is correct.

The Shaykh : Yes, interpretation is the brother of negation.

The questioner : Letting it pass without interpretation or negation. If someone asks me, I never say that Allah has a hand.

The Shaykh : I seek refuge in Allah, but this is being recorded against you. Pay attention.

The questioner : This statement is fresh, it is thirty-six years old.

The Shaykh : Are you speaking about the man?

The questioner : I mean, when a person is mistaken and Allah the Exalted...

The Shaykh : We know he is a Salafi. My brother, these Khalaf, as I told you, sometimes are Salafis who do not interpret, and sometimes they interpret. They are Khalafis in understanding. So mercy, anger, wonder, descent, and rising, all these they interpret. Our argument against them is why are you interpreting these things? They say, "By Allah, for us anger is the boiling of blood and the swelling of the neck veins, and so on." I say to you, O people, fear Allah. This is the anger of the created being. But as long as anger is attributed to Allah, there is nothing like Him.

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : Glory be to Allah.

The questioner : May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh : If Allah wills, there is no god but Allah.

The questioner : ... Ibn Taymiyyah or one of his students stood on the pulpit, stood on the pulpit and said...

The Shaykh : May Allah forgive you, may Allah forgive you. You are taking the words of their enemies. You brought from their words, and you did not find anything to answer from except the words of their enemies. And the first example you want to bring is from interpretation.

The questioner : I am free in any case. I told you it might be from their words or it might be from others.

The Shaykh : I am dying, I am almost dying from this noise. But this does not give us anything. You are now, may Allah bless you, taking a position that you want to prove that those who adopt the methodology of the Salaf have strictness. And you brought an example, the first example is false regarding Ibn Taymiyyah. So have you brought another example that is established?

The questioner : ... and Imam Ahmad, of course, that you prove that Allah is above the seven heavens...

The Shaykh : But I warn you that you have just changed your line.

The questioner : We told you, I want to change it, but with the same thought.

The Shaykh : What are you talking about? The thoughts of the predecessors? Not the thought of one person who is relied upon now? May Allah guide you. You are talking about the thoughts of the predecessors, and that is why you started with an example you attributed to Ibn Taymiyyah. We told you that his enemies mention this, so you need to give a second example about him or about someone else, not about me. Although I am not incapable of telling you that this is the truth, because the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) made this indication that you saw, and perhaps you considered it part of extremism or exaggeration, but it is also from the Sunnah. However, I am drawing your attention: stay on your original line. Because if I were an extremist now, does that mean the Salaf were extremists?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : This is what we understood from the beginning. All right.

The questioner : ... The seventh heaven does not mean a space. And what is above the seventh heaven?

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you, May Allah guide you, may Allah forgive you, may Allah forgive you. First, no one says this. It is not necessary to say this, it is not necessary to say this. No one says this. But you changed your line. You said that you noticed extremism in what you read. So what is this extremism? You are saying it is not necessary to be above in the sense of being above this one on that one. Who says otherwise? Did you change your line? If you changed it because it became clear to you that your speech was wrong, admit it, my brother. Admitting a mistake is the essence of correctness. And if you did not, you are not mistaken. Continue with the line and bring us the examples. We care about seeing the examples. We care about seeing the extremism that you attributed to those who adopted the line of the Salaf. So first, you brought the example and we showed you that this example is not correct. You came and brought a second example from our reality. Now we told you that you are talking about the past, not the present. And finally, you returned to say that "being above" does not mean that. Who said it means that? Since we are repeating to your ears, again and again, . Our rising above is not like His rising above. And all right, all the Salafis believe in this creed. So then, all right, what are you going around talking about? Who knows?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : When I ask, May Allah guide you, Professor Adnan. When we ask, "Where is Allah?" No, you are completely wrong. I tell you, you are not wrong, but this is a mistake that may now be considered a mistake. One day, you or someone else will not have a correct idea about the Salafi call and their belief in the divine attributes. And this is what we are actually doing, because a man comes to us from one of the parties saying, "You are such and such," and so on. I say to him, "My brother, our call is not based only on what you propagate about us, like moving the finger in prayer, hanging a picture is not permissible, hanging a small clock in the mosque, and so on. We are looking into the creed." I say, "Is there disagreement in the creed?" Yes, there is great disagreement, and you close the subject. All right, let us enter into an experiment. Please, where is Allah? He rolls his eyes like this and thinks, "What is this question?" And people of all shapes and colors. Some people say this question is not permissible, and it comes in the hadith as you know, and so on. On this occasion, we direct the question. But I tell you now, "Where is Allah?" How does this speech come out of you? It is strange!

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : Yes, by Allah, yes, by Allah, and by Allah you spoke the truth.

The questioner : Indeed, such a question is directed, and I am among them ...

The Shaykh : Of course, I ask, but whom do I ask? I ask the one who has doubt, who has uncertainty in his creed, who has uncertainty in his faith in Allah the Exalted.

The questioner : ... A specific concept....

The Shaykh : Also, this is like that issue of being above. Yes, that is right. But who says otherwise?

The questioner : ... You are judging about the slave girl, it is understood about her, perhaps it has another meaning.....

The Shaykh : What is the other meaning? This is a problem. You intend another meaning, it is this other meaning. You are telling her it has another meaning. What does it mean?

The questioner : I mean, regarding Allah the Exalted, this speech is never said in the context of talking about "Where is Allah."

The Shaykh : All right, it is not said that way. Listen, listen ...

The questioner : Why were we in Dr. 'Isam's house ... from where the shoulder is taken....

The Shaykh : All right, be patient. I am going to tell a story. You will see the meanings that you are currently denying about the word "where." We always state this, but without offense, the lack of connection and sitting together and gathering causes one to forget the truths that have settled in the hearts. Now I am telling a story that happened between me and one of the shaykhs. I think you are one of those who heard it from me once or more than once. And if you did not hear it, someone else heard it, of course. And then tell me what you think.
The Shaykh : This person who states and asks "Where is Allah?" Does he understand this divine attribute in the limited human sense? It has been a year of the Hajj, and we were in Mina. I was sitting with some pilgrims. There was an Egyptian and a Shami, and I was talking. An Azhar shaykh came in. He greeted us and sat down and listened to my speech. He smelled the scent of Salafism in my speech. He said: "You Wahhabis liken the Lord of the Worlds to the created things."
The Shaykh : We said to him: "How?" He said: "You say that Allah is above the heavens."
The Shaykh : I said to him: "We say, and this is not our speech, it is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds." And we mentioned a verse: and so on. So this is not our speech, it is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds, and it is obligatory to believe in it. Then I continued with him on the subject, a logical and rational subject. I think you will like his method, this logic, because you are filtering from your previous speech. So I said to him: "Come, let us see if those who believed that Allah rose above the Throne are those who ascribed a body to Him, those who placed Him in a place, confined Him to a place, or is this a fabrication against them."
The Shaykh : I said to him: "Before anything else, I ask you a question. Is the created universe limited or unlimited?"
The Shaykh : He said: "Limited."
The Shaykh : We said to him: "Is Allah Blessed and Exalted limited?"
The Shaykh : He said: "No."
The Shaykh : We said to him: "Good, we agree on this. Second question. Is the lowest heaven above us now?"

The questioner : A question based on the fact that the universe is limited by a legal indication and an intellectual indication ...

The Shaykh : No, intellectual and legal. And if this question does not satisfy you, the answer now is brief, so postpone it to later.
The Shaykh : I said to him: "What is above this lowest heaven?"
The Shaykh : He said: "The second, third, and fourth heavens, and so on. In short, up to the seventh heaven. And what is above the seventh heaven?"
The Shaykh : He said: "The Throne."
The Shaykh : We said to him: "Good. And what is above the Throne?"
The Shaykh : He said: "The angels of the Throne."
The Shaykh : I said to him: "What are these angels of the Throne?"
The Shaykh : He said: "Angels on the Throne."
The Shaykh : We said to him: "Do you have a verse that mentions this?"
The Shaykh : He said: "No."
The Shaykh : We said: "Do you have a hadith about that?"
The Shaykh : He said: "No."
The Shaykh : I said to him: "All right, where did you get these angels and place them there on the Throne?"
The Shaykh : He said: "By Allah, the shaykhs there in the Noble Azhar taught us this."
The Shaykh : I said to him: "It is amazing that the shaykhs of the Azhar state to the students that creeds are not established by authentic hadiths, if they are not mass-transmitted hadiths. And you are now issuing a ruling in creed without any hadith at all. But this is not our goal. Let us proceed with you now. The angels of the Throne are above the Throne. And what is above the angels of the Throne? Is there something, or does it end?"
The Shaykh : He said: "It ends."
The Shaykh : Does the creation being limited mean? We said, from the beginning, we told him: The universe is derived from "was" and "becomes," So this universe, according to our belief, the highest of the created things is the Throne of the Merciful. According to your belief, it is the angels of the Throne. And after that, what is there? Is there something? Is there a created thing? Is there a created thing? Is there a place?
The Shaykh : He said: "No."
I said: So why do you accuse us and say that we have placed our Lord in a place? You have now, by sound scientific logic, reached the conclusion that there is no place beyond the Throne. So when the Salafi Muslim says that Allah is above the Throne, it does not mean He is in a place like a human being is in a place, nor does it mean His being above the Throne is like the king being above the throne, or that the Throne is beneath Him. So if the expression is correct, the negations are a collection of the negations you are making. This is one of the necessities of the Salafi call, because we repeat it many times with our brother Ali here: So all His attributes are commensurate with His majesty and greatness; they do not resemble any of the attributes of the created things. The scholars divide the attributes into two categories: attributes of action and attributes of essence. An attribute of action is His descent. This is also an attribute of action, so His descent is not like our descent, and His rising above the Throne is not like our rising above, and so on. What you are going on about, as if for the first time, or as if you are being held accountable for this call, is that you try to say that this is not so and that is not so. And this, as they say, is one of our forgotten points. Transcendence is a necessity of affirmation; otherwise, it would be likening Allah to creation. May Allah have mercy on Ibn al-Qayyim when he said: "The one who ascribes a body to Allah worships an idol, and the one who denies the attributes worships nothing."
So if the Salafi, by affirming the attributes, ends up ascribing a body to Allah, that means he worships an idol, may Allah forbid it. So transcendence and affirmation are the methodology of the righteous Salaf in all the attributes. Do not imagine that if we say "He rose above the Throne" or "Where is Allah?" that there is any likening of the Creator to the created. I seek refuge in Allah.
The question now is: I have heard this story before this time.

The questioner : No.

The Shaykh: So what do we do for you?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh: No, no, the point of the question is that this story is the answer to your objections, but this is repeated in our gatherings.

The questioner: ... It is not clear ... regarding the deniers of attributes, the ones who attribute a body, the ones who liken, and ...

The Shaykh: I don't know, you mean you are still going on about the issue of creed. It does not need philosophy or explanation. You are imposing something that has no way to it. These are not legal rulings. The original principle in all these studies is: . If it were not for the entry of the science of theology and the necessity for people to speak about things the predecessors did not speak about, this whole discourse would not be applicable, and it would not be permissible to delve into it. You want us to delve into it further now, so this is an error.

The questioner: The method ... and whoever adds to this and that, meaning we need more clarification?

The Shaykh: Now we ask what the clarification is. What is the point that is obscure to you? In the few sessions, be patient, but when we will clarify, my brother.

The questioner: The hidden point is when someone comes ... gives Allah a dimension ... brings this talk from the Salafi books and reads it before us ... we convince the people of knowledge with it ...

The Shaykh: No, no, I wanted to say more than that. The Qur'an and the Sunnah, can this be what you are saying? What do we do with the Qur'an and the Sunnah, I mean?