Affirming the Attributes of Allah the Exalted and the Meaning of Denial of Attributes and Negation, and the Story of Shaykh Al-Albani’s Debate on Affirming the Exaltation of Allah Mighty and Majestic with an Azhar Shaykh.

The questioner : A comment on the terms "denial of attributes" and "negation": What is the difference between denial of attributes and negation?

The Shaykh : Negation may coincide with denial of attributes in meaning, meaning the negation of the attribute. But negation is explicit, whereas denial of attributes involves playing around with the verse and interpreting it in a way that denies Allah of this attribute. So he does not deny it directly, but through interpretation he denies it. Negation is to deny it outright. For example, let us give an example now. There is a hadith in the two Sahihs and others that falls under this topic which one must believe in as it came, without asking how with our small, narrow minds, and without any denial of attributes or negation. That is, the hadith must be... you have all heard it: Those who deny the divine attributes mentioned in the Book, and the Book cannot be denied, are the most astray of sects. They cannot deny it because then their affair would be exposed and they would exit the religion. As for the hadiths, they sometimes dare to deny them and negate them. So they say: Our Lord does not descend. If they negate the hadith, the summary of the answer, as I said at the beginning, is that negation meets denial of attributes, but sometimes negation entails denying the text itself from the start, like this hadith for example. They do not affirm its authenticity from the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) because if they affirmed it, they would affirm an action for Allah. In their narrow minds, they liken the descent of the angel from His Throne. The problem of problems is always likening the Creator to the created. And this is undoubtedly the most invalid analogy on earth, especially since Allah the Exalted said in the previous verse: And from the eloquence of the Qur'an is that it did not say: only. It purified Him and then affirmed. It said: . So He is Hearing, but not like our hearing, and His Sight is not like our sight. All the attributes, including the divine descent, His descent is not like our descent. This is the answer, if Allah wills. Yes.

The questioner : Is the descent of Allah like our descent? A moment ago you were speaking that His descent is not like our descent?

The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.

The questioner : So are front and back, above and below, these are attributes of our existence?

The Shaykh : Of course.

The questioner : So why did we find it strange regarding Allah? We found it strange the one who says...

The Shaykh : No, no, the strangeness, may Allah reward you, is from the side of their description of Allah. If you took the phrase from beginning to end, I think you would find that you are not in need of the question. Allah, from here, the speech began: Allah is not above, not below, not right, not left. These are attributes regarding directions for us, there is no problem. But look at the end: Allah is not above, not below, not right, not left, not front, not back, not inside the world, not outside it. What remains? Is there any existence remaining? Not inside the world, not outside the world!

The questioner : ...with the same attributes that exist in the first place, following the existence of the created things, perhaps they do not hold for Allah Mighty and Majestic? Perhaps there are other measures. That is, tangible measures.

The Shaykh : Outside the world, there are measures.

The questioner : Outside the human mind.

The Shaykh : No, no, outside the world, according to their expression, perhaps I can tell you a story that happened to me in Mina ten years ago during the Hajj season. I was sitting with some people after the Maghrib prayer, discussing legal research, of course, when an Azhar shaykh entered. He said: Peace be upon you, and upon you be peace. He sat and listened. The occasion for this speech came. Of course, his study in al-Azhar, as I told you about the shaykhs with Ibn Taymiyyah, exactly said: Our saying that Allah Mighty and Majestic is above all created things is likening and ascribing a body. This is exactly the speech of the Azharis, and the speech of the shaykhs from the scholars of kalam. So I engaged with him in the research as follows, and perhaps he is the one who resolved the issue or answered the question.
I said to him first: The scriptural proofs must be believed in without asking how, that is, without likening, and without denial of attributes, that is, without denying their meanings.
Second: Let us study the topic with my mind and your mind to see which of the two statements is more correct. So I asked him the following, consecutive questions. I said to him: What is above us now? He said: The lowest heaven. I said: Good. And above the lowest heaven? He said: The second, third, fourth, seventh.
Good, perhaps I missed something, I asked him before. I said to him: Is the created universe finite or does it have no end? He said: No, it is finite because it is created. We said to him: Good, plant this in your mind. Then I asked him about the heavens until we reached the seventh heaven. What is above the seventh heaven? He said: The Throne. I said to him: Good. What is above the Throne? For the first time I heard this strange answer.
He said: The Kerubiyun angels. I said to him: What are these Kerubiyun angels? I know in some hadiths that they have no withers and no reins, but a shaykh says above the Throne are Kerubiyun angels. I said to him: Where did you get this from? Do you have a verse?
He said: No. I said: Do you have a hadith? He said: No. I said: But where did you get the Kerubiyun angels above the Throne from?
He said: By Allah, this is how our shaykhs in al-Azhar taught us. I actually seized this opportunity, and I say it now for the sake of reminding and warning. The shaykhs of al-Azhar, unfortunately, as a curriculum, teach students of knowledge that creed is not established by an authentic hadith. The hadith must be authentic and mass-transmitted. Do you see? If it is less than mass-transmitted in authenticity and strength, creed is not established by it. And this is an error without doubt. I have two printed treatises on refuting this statement, and that the authentic hadith, in terms of the obligation to act upon it, is creed, ruling, and action. So I said to him:The Shaykh : Strange, by Allah: We know that the scholars of al-Azhar teach that an authentic hadith is not taken from for creed, Kerubiyun above the Throne, and there is neither a hadith nor a verse, and yet we said to him: We do not stop here. Suppose there are Kerubiyun angels above the Throne. What is above that? He said: Nothing. This is the point. He said: Nothing.
This answer, the scholars of the Sunnah say, this is denial of attributes. Do you see how this is negation? That is, negating the existence of Allah. Well, we said to him: Nothing. You say nothing, meaning with the Kerubiyun, creation ended, the finite creation ended. Well, outside this creation now, is there nothing? We believe Allah is the Creator of all these things, and He is above them, exalted over them, and so on. Perhaps this answer brings the topic closer regarding your previous question?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh: May Allah will it.

The questioner : Some say, using the expression that humans use... and the response is truly, when we are humans researching Allah Glorified and Exalted, a medium is necessary. A language is necessary. So if they want us to deny this language and this medium, we do not reach anything. That is, when they describe Allah, not front, not above, not below, they use this medium. So how can you negate or affirm without this medium that can be agreed upon? And this is proof of demolishing what they want. Is my speech clear or does it need clarification? If we need a medium, this medium needs to be preserved.

The Shaykh : And what is it?

The questioner : With these interpretations, we must preserve the medium.

The Shaykh : Yes, and where is the research? We are speaking, we are within the limits of our world, is that not so, the created thing? Here is a problem in the limits of the created things, is there a problem?

The questioner : No.

The Shaykh : Well, if so, where is the problem?

The questioner : You are measuring.

The Shaykh : We are measuring...? Where is the measurement?

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : Well, are these fixed facts for us or not? Well, where is the measurement that you say there is measurement?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : And it is so, we reached the last created thing, good. Well, what do you imagine now, are the created things limited or unlimited?

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : How? Is it your question or my question?

The questioner : My question.

The Shaykh : And what is it?

The questioner : ...tangible things...

The Shaykh : In the tangible, in the tangible, the tangible in the tangible, but behind, and the tangible we never speak of, but within the limits of the text. We want with these premises to refute the denial of attributes of these people. He is saying to you, if you say you have limited Him, given Him a body, placed Him in a place. O people, fear Allah. The place, now I remember the correction I made that the place is derived from what? From the universe. So the place is created, the place is created, this universe is a place. Well, when this place ended, when this creation ended, what is behind it? The same Azhari, what is behind it?
He said: There is nothing. In a place? He said: No, because place is part of the creation, so if there is no place there, we have moved beyond the tangible and the non-existent. Now we are speaking within the limits of what we know of the material. After that, you and others should return with us so that the issue becomes clear to you. We mentioned the hadith of 'Umar ibn al-Husayn earlier This is a belief in which every Muslim believes. What does "there is nothing with Him" mean? "Nothing" means no creation. Then Allah created the creation, He created the Throne, and so on. Now, was He in a creation?

The questioner : No.

The Shaykh : Now, this is our statement. It is as some of the Sufis say, but they intend a different, incorrect meaning. In this respect we are discussing, He is as He was. He was not in a place, so He is not in a place now. Why do you, O Muslims, accuse the righteous Salaf who affirm for Allah all attributes of perfection, including the attribute of absolute elevation, not material elevation, but absolute elevation? Why do you say they are those who ascribe a body to Allah? That they placed Allah in a place? When you investigate calmly, you will reach with us the conclusion that there is no place. If Allah was and there was nothing with Him, then He is now as He was. But He is the Doer of what He wills, the Doer of what He desires. He creates, gives life, and causes death. In His hand is the balance of justice, and so on. So your difficulty was in this tangible creation. But when you imagine that the creation has ended, we return to what the Lord of the worlds was like before He created time and place, correct?

The questioner : What is behind what? ...

The Shaykh : Behind what? ... Define the statement.

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : What is behind the Throne? Of course, I mean he is afraid I will say, for example, that there are cherubim in thrones. Since the creation has ended, we are done with it. This, my brother, is a way of convincing the opponent from his own words. You say that those who say placed Him in a place. Now, bring us the place from the creation. Yes, and He was preceded by non-existence? Yes. Now, what is above? The first heaven, the second... we reached the Throne, and we reached the angels with it, the cherubim. Now, what is after that? Nothing, nothing. If there is nothing, then there is no place. If there is no place, then Allah was and there was nothing with Him, meaning He was not in any created thing, because He is free of need of the worlds. Allah the Exalted is now as He was before He created place and time. This is the belief we call the Salafi belief. It is the innate belief that the intellect accepts nothing other than it, when it is clarified to it in the manner of the Noble Qur'an and the Prophetic Sunnah.
And in fact, I remember a story. I was traveling from Idlib to Latakia. I had a small car. When we left Idlib, there was a person who was clearly a foreigner. He was giving this signal. What is it called?

The questioner : Stop.

The Shaykh : These are beggars at the crossroads, beggars for rides. By Allah, I was driving in my car and there was a person next to me. He caught my attention; I had passed him, so I said to my companion, "What do you think? Let's go back and pick him up. He looks like a foreigner, and we can have some fun with him on the road?" He said, "There is no objection." We went back, and lo and behold, the wretch had hidden two women with him, apparently his wife and his daughter, making three of them. In any case, the place was empty, so we picked them up. We wanted to chat with him and pass the time, as the saying goes in a joke, "It is either you cut me off or I cut you off. How will we communicate?" I mean, through conversation. We reached this specific topic with him when we explained to him this creed. He said, "This is the reasonable view: that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is above the created things, not inside the created things. They, as Christians, do not have these beliefs that we have, which are explicitly stated in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. But my point is that the fitrah (innate natural disposition) accepts this sound belief. However, when doubts and questions are presented to them, most people are defeated by them and cannot find an answer. But the one who is well-grounded in the Book of Allah and the Hadith of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), and the foundation of all of this is that there is nothing like Him, the problem is solved. Yes.

The questioner : Now, do we understand from your words, is it permissible to debate the atheists, for example...?

The Shaykh : Of course, Allah has established this sunnah (recommended practice). He said to them, for example: But naturally, the one who wants to debate them must be, as they say in our region of Sham, "of his own accord." First, he must be knowledgeable of the Book of Allah, knowing the Book of Allah and knowing the Hadith of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). Then he must know how to handle the situation, meaning he knows how to engage and maneuver with these false claimants, so that his truth becomes apparent over their falsehood. Otherwise, a person may know of his religion only what he found his fathers and grandfathers upon. He needs to know how to discuss with them, and he needs to discuss with them using pure reason. One reason may be superior to another; the stronger reason overcomes the weaker reason. Whereas all the minds, if they were to gather, would not be able to rise above a text from the Book of Allah or from the Hadith of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). That is permissible, but with this condition.

The questioner : ...

The Shaykh : This is strange speech, my brother. You memorize the verse I mentioned to you: This is the answer to the communists, the materialists, and the atheists all together. They must affirm matter. They must affirm it. Now, what is the power of this matter? What are its attributes? What, what? Did matter do this? And matter did this? Glory be to Allah. Now, let us follow their expression. We and you meet on a common word, that there is a thing that has no beginning. Is that correct or not? There is a thing that has no beginning for us and for them. But we are stronger than them in intellect as well, in addition to the text. We say this thing is capable, not incapable. We say this is All-Knowing, we do not say ignorant. We say Wise, we do not say foolish... and so on. And there is no doubt that the intellect accepts this attribute to be described. This matter from which these created things burst forth, which to this day increase in our bewilderment at the precision of their composition and their making, and so on. How can it be said that this is from blind, deaf, and dumb matter, and so on? Therefore, the atheists were overcome by their affair, because the intellect was liberated. They say matter is eternal. Now, why do you deny us that we say Allah is eternal? You meet us in this. But we are distinguished from you in that Allah the Exalted has all attributes of perfection, and He is free of all attributes of deficiency. You say matter is such and such. Sometimes you describe it with a good attribute, like power, for example. But at the same time, you describe it. If we say to you, describe this matter for us, does matter see, hear, and look? They do not hear of all these attributes. The problem is debating these people. If a person wants to go deep with them, then he is in need of knowledge of the texts of the Book and the Sunnah.