The belief of Ali al-Faqir that all seventy-two sects are disbelievers.

Al-Halabi : And it was said that they returned to Ali al-Faqir, who transmitted a statement regarding the issue of the seventy-two sects, saying, "They are all disbelievers."

The Shaykh : Who said it?
Al-Halabi : Ali al-Faqir said they are all disbelievers, so Wafiq said to him, "You have not preceded anyone to this statement; the man is a fool and could not speak properly, and so it was. Wafiq’s question in the matter, or at the beginning of the research, was that we had not heard of Hasan al-Saqaf’s statement regarding the issue of Ibn Taymiyyah—whether he is a disbeliever or a Muslim. Ali al-Faqir did not want to open a field or leave a research gap, so he said everything is [disbelief]. How is this statement? It ended there. He said more than three or four times that he does not declare him a disbeliever, nor does he declare any of the Muslims disbelievers, and that Ibn Taymiyyah is not a disbeliever. He mentioned this more than once. But in reality, in the sessions on his tapes, you do not find Hasan having confirmed this, neither from near nor from far.

The Shaykh : This is part of the complete wickedness.
Al-Halabi : Yes, but the reality is that in every tape, or at the end of the research into the two issues raised, the ruling was that if we err regarding Ibn Taymiyyah, we can never say he is a disbeliever, because there are clear texts that do not allow us to lean toward declaring him a disbeliever, because it is not said thus and thus. This was, of course, part of the ruling. My opinion now was in agreement with the opinion of our brothers, but with a slight modification. This opinion consists of three points. The first point is that we must go tomorrow, because we cannot do otherwise, but we go to say that these sessions were not held for a series of issues, but were held for two issues: the issue of Hajj and the issue of the specific quality of the created or the accidents. These two issues have concluded their research, and we do not object to new research; in fact, we request new research, but with a new arrangement, a new concept, and an understanding of the place, the arbitration, its principles, its regulations, and so on, regarding issues that are not related to a person, but are complete methodological issues for understanding this Islam in which understandings have differed, and so on. Especially since, in the last session, a questioner was asked, and he wasThe Shaykh : Ahmad 'Atiyyah, unfortunately, said, "O Shaykh, Ali al-Faqir, Hasan al-Saqaf says the people of the Sunnah and the community, and AliAl-Halabi : says the people of the Sunnah and the community. Who are the people of the Sunnah and the community? So Ali al-Faqir responded, saying, "The people of the Sunnah and the community, in our view, are the Asha'irah." Of course, I did not remain silent here; I said, "I want to clarify strongly that this statement is not acceptable, and that the people of the Sunnah and the community are what Imam Abu al-Hasan al-Ash'ari was upon in his book al-Ibanah wa al-Maqalat, not what his later followers became, and so on, or words to that effect. So I say, I focus on this issue as well. This is the second point. The first point is establishing the previous result that it is not permissible to say that the Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah is a disbeliever, because the clear texts we brought refute this statement, or that it is a bold statement. The second issue is that if there is research into other issues, it must be arranged, examined, and defined with principles and objectives, and so on. The third thing is that there are papers; in reality, I am writing in them and have shown them to some of our brothers, and I have not finished them yet. I would like to distribute them to the attendees at the end of the session. They speak about the debate in general, and scrutinize these issues and some quotations that were not available to us, or rather were available to us, but the ruling prevented us from completing them and stating them, as the listener of the tape or the person present observes. So I wrote them in these papers, and on the basis of that, we will, for example, make one hundred copies and distribute them to the attendees so that it is a clearer and more explicit image of our speech and opinion on this topic. So I do not know what the professor's opinion is.

The Shaykh : This is good, but one should benefit from the previous experience. It is not necessary for the shepherds, the general public, to be present, meaning these people, because these people do not understand what you are saying and what the opponent is saying.
Al-Halabi : This is correct.

Another questioner : He gathered them.

The Shaykh : But he is now, as he has set the preconditions, which are very reasonable, also setting conditions that only people they agree upon should be present.
Al-Halabi : Yes, this is very good. May Allah reward you with good. And what is our professor's opinion?

The questioner : Hasan approved at the beginning of the session, saying, "I would have liked it to be only my head and Ali's head in my research of this issue. This is what he says...
Al-Halabi : This is a lie.

The questioner : This is what he says. Look at the action of his hands, and do not look at his words.

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.
Al-Halabi : The reality is exactly the opposite, my Shaykh. What is your opinion on the concept of the three points?

The Shaykh : I told you, Muslim with this, but added to it is the non-presence of the shepherds of the people and the general public.
Al-Halabi : May Allah reward you with good, O our Shaykh.

The Shaykh : And beware of that.
Abu Layli: But this, my Shaykh, might not speak in front of people that it must be in a private setting. In this session, the common people will stir up trouble against him and consider it a weakness in Brother Ali.

The Shaykh : How?
Abu Layli: I mean, when we condition it upon them, only specific ones, and it means that when they hear this speech in front of people, meaning when Brother Ali says it in front of these people sitting there, they will not take it that this is the principle of the scientific debate. No, they will take it that you are belittling us, or you are such and such, or so on.

The questioner : My two Shaykhs, I have a small interjection.

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.

The questioner : In the issues we are researching, there is no harm in the common people becoming aware of them. The issue of the Highness must be such that when the general public becomes aware of it, it is not like the issue of the specific quality, the issue of Hajj, and other words of the jurists.

The Shaykh : There is a difference, O professor. What you are saying, you are correct. When the man from among our brothers wants to speak without anyone objecting to him, this is necessary and obligatory. But for the general public to understand what I said, what was the response to him, and so on, the common people will be lost in it and not benefit from it. It means delivering a lecture in front of a gathering.

Another questioner : Other than the discussion...

The Shaykh : Without a doubt, yes.
Al-Halabi : My Shaykh, we did not emphasize our desire for a small number. Ibrahim Bajis came to me.

The Shaykh : It is known.
Al-Halabi : When we visited Shu'ayb al-Arna'ut in order to speak with him, because we learned that Hasan al-Saqaf had gone to him, so we wanted to see his opinion on the topic and what he said to Hasan al-Saqaf, and so on. So, of course, he informed us that he also spoke with Hasan al-Saqaf about not declaring him a disbeliever, and that it is not permissible, and so on. He said and remained silent and did not speak, and the young men sitting there approved. But as for Bajis, he says, "Okay, Brother Ali, why can't the number be smaller than this?" I said, "By Allah, this is what we are requesting, and this is what we requested from the beginning. It never crossed our minds at all that this number would be, as evidenced by the fact that we did not come to them except in one car, my brother Abu Ahmad, and four of the brothers, only and nothing else." He said, "Okay, what is your opinion if the session is in my house, three of you, three of them, and I am present, in addition to the judge?" I said, "I have no objection. I am finished, I agree." He said, "Okay, then the session will be tomorrow with this arrangement."

The Shaykh : Who is saying this?
Al-Halabi : This is Ibrahim Bajis's statement regarding his objection to me; it is not about what comes after the first session. The important thing is that I told him there was no objection on my part, and we agreed on this basis. Then the brothers started calling us, and we told them that the session is limited, and it is forbidden for more than three people to attend, and so on, meaning a large number, and a very large number. On that day, our professor, we came to you on a Sunday exactly, and we discussed this topic. When we were returning, we did not return, and the news reached us that he did not approve of the new conditions, which stipulate that only three people be present, and that everyone wants to attend, and the addition to all of this is that it is in a mosque. Naturally, we did not issue our approval for this. Immediately, we went as agreed to Ibrahim Bajis, in front of his house, even though we knew that the crowds were waiting in the mosque. We waited at Ibrahim Bajis's door, and no one came. So we sent some of the brothers, and Abu al-Fada' sent us to Ibrahim, and we told him, "Look, and tell him that the young men are waiting for you at your place as they agreed with you." So Ibrahim came, and we told him... We agreed like this, so he said, "Yes, but they did not approve; they said it must be a public session in the mosque." I told him, "In the first place, I did not specify the number of attendees except according to the request, so there is no objection or anything, so that you are not taken to task on any of the points. This is first. Second, as for it being in the mosque, that is not possible... It cannot be in any house; we are ready for that, but in a mosque, it cannot be. And after that, we set out to the poor man's house after their statement in this matter. So this is regarding the issue of attendance and the number of attendees and so on. They are the ones who want, meaning, to benefit the people and bring them and stir them up and so on. Just as you mentioned, my professor, that they are a group who know nothing; meaning, they hear a word, if you raise your voice, they clap, and if you lower your voice, they fall silent.

The Shaykh : And it was said long ago about people like them, "Followers of every caller." But here, my professor, we must benefit from this experience with something else. When will the next meeting be?
Al-Halabi : Tomorrow.

The questioner : Tomorrow, okay. So how, meaning, when will you convey the conditions you mentioned to them?
Al-Halabi : And we are sitting.

The Shaykh : We did not benefit from anything.

Another questioner : The Shaykh : Ali wants to be accommodated and says that the issues we raised are finished, and we want to raise new issues under new conditions.

The Shaykh : But the crowd is not going to disperse, my brother.

Another questioner : That there be an arrangement for future sessions, that is not going to happen.
Al-Halabi : The crowd will disperse with the papers we will distribute, and we will say, "This is your benefit tonight from these papers, and we have nothing else." As for us, we are enough with what has befallen us of these things.

The Shaykh : Meaning, there is not going to be a discussion on this night.
Al-Halabi : Tomorrow, there is not going to be a discussion at all.

The Shaykh : This is what I mean.
Al-Halabi : This is what we have arranged with the brothers, that there be no discussion at all.

The Shaykh : Meaning, they convey the conditions and distribute the papers. If they accept the conditions in them, good; otherwise, no. Then the one who has warned has fulfilled his duty.
Al-Halabi : We will have done what Allah has obligated upon us.
Abu 'Abdullah : Regarding the papers and so on.
Al-Halabi : The papers are purely scientific, my brother Abu 'Abdullah. The young men have read some of them, so, praise be to Allah, there is no insult or such, and they are purely scientific and contain no names.
Abu 'Abdullah : Does the topic have any negatives?

The Shaykh : I do not think so.
Al-Halabi : There is nothing in them. Meaning, if they were in a secret form, there might be negatives. But these are distributed openly, and we are distributing the papers, and all of it is a library, which we bear the cost of. And they are creedal matters. If there are negatives, they are on the other party, because they are the ones who declare people disbelievers.
Abu 'Abdullah : He originally did not raise a ruling, and he, the poor man, said that the Shaykh al-Islam erred in his statement regarding the limit, and said he erred in his statement regarding the limit, and said he erred in his statement regarding the limit in the Salafi sense. Yes, he said Ibn Taymiyyah erred in his statement regarding the limit, and he intended by it, after the division, that the limit in the Salafi sense is that Allah, Glorified and Exalted, is above His Throne.

The Shaykh : This means that he denies the elevation.

The questioner : He, my professor, had an excuse in that he was studying in the book al-Jawharah.

The Shaykh : Ah, Allah is the Helper.

The Shaykh : Okay, what are the issues, meaning, that you plan to present for discussion, or after?
Al-Halabi : There is.

The questioner : As for me, I want to present the issues. In the first issue, the issue of the speech of Allah.

The Shaykh : No problem, well done. But I am saying that you plan, what do you want to present?

The questioner : The issue of the speech of Allah between the Asha'irah and the people of hadith, and the issue of acquisition (kasb) with the Asha'irah and between the people of hadith, and the issue of attributes, and the most important of them is the issue of elevation, interpretation, or in another issue they adhere to without being Asha'irah, and that is the issue of the Sufis.

The questioner : After these four issues of the Asha'irah, it is the issue of the Sufis.

The Shaykh : Good, but I suggest avoiding the issue of acquisition (kasb), because it has something of precision. So if it is said, "discussion of compulsion (jabr)," that is fine, not acquisition.

The questioner : Understood, my professor. The acquisition I intended is the discussion of acquisition with the Asha'irah.
Al-Halabi : It is a matter of precise terms.

The Shaykh : No problem. Now, when you say "discussion of acquisition with the Asha'irah," what is understood?Those present .
Al-Halabi : Nothing... Compulsion (jabr) is stronger in reality.

The Shaykh : Meaning, from the policy of research and discussion, that you speak in words that do not need interpretation, that are themselves explanatory and clarifying. And this is from the etiquette of the Sunnah that we benefited from the hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) What is this excuse? It is not something we hear often from people. My brother, for example, you say such and such, and this is not said, and the one who says it says, "I intend such and such." If you speak in a term that you need to interpret, by proof, you say, "I intend such and such." Therefore, we avoid terms that require us to explain what we intend from them, especially before the non-specialists, meaning before the general public. But when you say "discussion of compulsion (jabr)," then compulsion is very clear, especially when you associate it with the fact that:
The questioner : He cast him into the sea bound, then said to him: *** Beware, beware, lest you be wet by the water.
The questioner : If it is necessary to be exposed to this issue, then I stipulate two conditions. First, that this be the last one, and perhaps you will not reach it, because the first and second issues will take weeks. Yes, this is the first condition. And the second condition is that it be titled "compulsion (jabr)." Yes.

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh : My brother, perhaps this poor man, who is a name that fits its description, might understand you, or might not understand.

The questioner : They reject the meaning of compulsion (jabr) that acquisition is compulsion. They reject it. The important thing is also the issue of the Sufis that they raise, and what are the beliefs of the Sufis in the books of the men?

The Shaykh : This is undoubtedly an important thing.
Al-Halabi : Especially since the people are all walking on their path.

The Shaykh : What Allah willed, meaning, on other than the straight path.
Al-Halabi : They are walking, and the sin is changed to a haa.

The Shaykh : Bring it, let's see what you have?
Abu Layla : We want to see our brother Abu Muhammad, who always likes to ask some questions in his imagination.