The Shaykh spoke on whether religious knowledge conflicts with or contradicts empirical science, giving examples such as the Nile and the Euphrates: do they spring from Paradise or not?

The Shaykh : But the technical method of drawing this water is that it cannot be drawn by pipes in a single pull from the spring to Damascus; there must be basins, meaning centers. And indeed, on this mountain of Qasiyun, there are several basin centers that are filled with water and then distributed through these pipes. So if one of these basins is struck, the water is cut off from the town. The one who does not know this scientific fact that this water springs from the spring will say to you, "Where is this water coming from? It is coming from this basin." But the one who knows more than the first person's knowledge will say to you, "No, it is from the basin before that, and before that, and before that." And then, where does human reason reach? To the spring of the spring. Now, you said that the Euphrates and the Nile spring from known lands, and I say with your words. The weaker position in my view is: from the perspective of faith, is it not possible that there is a supply from the sky, from Paradise, of this sweet water? Does the Euphrates supply the source that human reason has reached? Is it not possible, from the perspective of faith, that there is a connection from the sky to the earth, so that this water we see springing from the earth, following the Nile, for example, and following the Euphrates, this from Egypt or Sudan, and this from where, from Iraq? Is it not possible, from the perspective of faith, is it not possible that there is a connection with the sky, or is it not possible?

The questioner : From the perspective of faith, it is possible! But this is not it!

The Shaykh : No, no, this is the research now. Is it not among the conditions of correct faith, and the first thing Allah said: Who are they? If news comes to us discussing a matter of the unseen, there is no room or scope for the intellect to penetrate it. Is this not part of faith?

The questioner : As a general answer, yes!

The Shaykh: All right.

The questioner : A general answer, meaning.

The Shaykh : And what is behind this reservation of saying "general"? Let us say "specific"; we need a specific answer!

The questioner : First, the research does not involve a question of whether one believes or does not believe; it means, scientifically.

The Shaykh : How, how, how? We have a hadith before us.

The questioner : It is a settled matter!

The Shaykh : My brother, I stop. When it is a settled matter, my brother, the previous question does not come up at all!

The questioner : The previous question comes up.

The Shaykh : Yes, please go ahead.

The questioner : And I have predecessors in this, meaning.

The Shaykh : I do not care! If you have predecessors, they may be wrong like your story, or right like my story.

The questioner : The issue requires research.

The Shaykh : And so, what do we do now?

The questioner : We research.

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner : So the level at which we are researching is not the level of faith; it is the level of research, meaning it is agreed upon.

The Shaykh: What is it?

The questioner : That it is possible, from the perspective of faith, that the Nile, in a certain way, is a miracle from Allah the Exalted, and indeed its water is from Paradise. This issue is possible; no one disputes it!

The Shaykh : Does the hadith contradict this issue?

The questioner : I want to clarify now.

The Shaykh: No.

The questioner : It does not contradict it from the perspective of faith; it does not contradict it!

The Shaykh : Okay, my brother, may Allah bless you, like this. Can you reach either agreement, or does each person remain with his opinion? Now, can this hadith not be interpreted in this perspective of faith!

The questioner : It can be interpreted!

The Shaykh : Why do we not do it?

The questioner : Because matters are not researched this way because it is an issue?

The Shaykh : Do not tire me, may Allah be pleased with you. Do not say "because matters"; what do you mean by this dangerous collection? What are the matters? We are now researching a Prophetic hadith, by your admission that it is an authentic hadith. Its chain is sound, right? We do not have "matters" now; we have this matter, this hadith. We are still in this context, meaning. So why do we expand the circle? It gets long, "matters." This will take us off the path...

The questioner : I have premises that lead me to stop and research, exactly as happens with causes. When you...

The Shaykh : My brother, I am not researching with you... It is so, my brother. I did not contradict you, and I am proceeding with you on this basis.

The questioner : So now, I have verified this chain and this hadith, but in this hadith there is an issue that leads me to stop, not because I do not believe that there is a possibility...

The Shaykh : You went back to "not." My brother, I did not claim that you are not a believer!

The questioner : I answer, may Allah reward you with good, meaning.

The Shaykh : Why are you saying about yourself that you are not...

The questioner : It is not this... In my opinion, I now see that this has gone off topic.

The Shaykh : Good

The questioner : I say now, briefly: the limits of the intellect in understanding. What are the limits of the intellect with the correctness of transmission? The rational guidelines. The narrator himself may err, meaning he may err...!

The Shaykh : My brother, there is no need for all this explanation. I tell you, he may err. What is built behind it? But we need to reach whether he erred or did not err.

The questioner : How do I know that he erred?

The Shaykh : When it contradicts a matter that has no interpretation in any way, absolutely. So I am now presenting to you a perspective that allows you to be certain that one of these people erred!

The questioner : There are premises. The collection and reconciliation in disagreement must be, meaning, permissible.

The Shaykh : Is it?

The questioner : The collection is permissible!

The Shaykh : And have we gone beyond this permissibility?

The questioner : The issue of possibility. We can be in research and come and say, "Is it not possible that Allah the Mighty and Majestic does this?" Yes, it is possible. If the matter ends there!

The Shaykh : But no, the matter did not end, because we do not say, with the possibility of Allah that He is able to do such and such, that He did such and such. We cannot say this. We say we stand at the limits of negation. Allah is able to do everything. For example, is Allah able to create a person with two heads, a tail like a monkey, and he speaks like a human? The answer is Allah is able to do everything. But the research is not like this now. The research is: did Allah create a person with two heads?

The questioner : Yes, this research is good, yes.

The Shaykh : Did He create a person with two heads? I say I do not know. Did you know?

The questioner : I do not know...!

The Shaykh : Your opinion? Okay, let us say, let us say, rationally and religiously, it is possible for the Lord of the Worlds to create a person with two heads and to create a person with two tails instead of one tail. This is possible. But did this happen? The answer is it did not happen within the limits of our knowledge, right?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : Okay, now look at the topic. How do you say this went off topic? We are in the heart of the topic. Is Allah able to supply the two rivers with a river from Paradise, from the sky to the earth, or is He unable?

The questioner : Able.

The Shaykh : Able. Okay, did He do it or not? Say I do not know.

The questioner : This is the research, meaning.

The Shaykh : Say I do not know.

The questioner : I do not know!

The Shaykh : Okay, we said He created a person with two tails. He is able to do everything, but I do not know. Now, our topic is around: is Allah able to send down water from the sky? I do not mean rain, but from above the sky, from Paradise, to supply the Euphrates and the Nile. Able or not?

The questioner : Able.

The Shaykh : It is even more certain to say He is able. Okay, look, did He do it or not? Here faith appears for natural science, geography, astronomy. It denies this religious fact because it denies the creation of seven heavens, one above another. What do you think? Does science deny this fact or not?

The questioner : I do not know.

The Shaykh : How can it not know?

The questioner : I do not know that it denies it.

The Shaykh : It does not deny it? How does it not deny it? Okay, allow me...

The questioner : You added new knowledge for me...

The Shaykh : Allow me. Does science acknowledge this fact?

Another questioner : ... It does not know.

The Shaykh : It does not know! My brother, does science acknowledge something called "sky" for us? Is the sky in science the same as the sky in the Shari'ah?
The questioner: It is not so.

The Shaykh : Okay, so what is our position, we Muslims? Do we believe in seven heavens, one above another? You will say, yes, we believe, right?

The questioner : Of course.

The Shaykh : What is the difference now between believing in seven heavens, one above another, following a Qur'anic text, and science knowing nothing of this religious fact at all? What is the difference between this religious fact that science does not know, and I say, returning to the origin of your research, the intellect does not comprehend it!

The questioner : The difference.

The Shaykh : Be patient. Now we have reached the question: Is our Lord able to do such and such? Yes, He is able to supply the Nile and the Euphrates with water from Paradise. Look, did this happen? What is the way of knowing whether it happened or not?

The questioner : The news.

The Shaykh : This is news.

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : And it is sound according to the method of verifying news?

The questioner : Correct.

The Shaykh : So what must our position be? Allow me! I think it escaped your suspicion that I am now researching in a research.

Another questioner : The weaker position.

The Shaykh : You have presented a good point! It is a weaker position, do you see? Why is it so? Just to broaden our horizons. We do not come to stand before every hadith that does not enter our minds and say, "Let us demolish it completely." No, but my answer now is: does the hadith state that the Nile and the Euphrates spring forth?

The questioner : Yes, I think the wording is there: they spring forth.

The Shaykh : And it is authentic, as you said, with a sound chain. What I have in mind right now is that the Euphrates and the Nile are from Paradise?

The questioner : This hadith is in Muslim!

The Shaykh : No problem, I am telling you what I have in mind right now. It is possible that it is a hadith of recent memory, and therefore I am asking you about the word "spring forth" in it?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : Good, and this is on your responsibility now!

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : Is this addition sound in chain according to you?

The questioner : Yes, it is authentic.

The Shaykh : Okay, look, here again there is an interjected phrase. Many hadiths in the two Sahihs have some with more details than others. So, when a person wants to conduct research like this, he wants to conduct a very precise hadith research. I did not do that, but I am warning you: the word "spring forth" might be anomalous in one path of the hadith. In that case, this addition would not be sound. Ah, so if we assume now that Zayd, a person who is knowledgeable and capable in hadith science, conducted an investigation into this hadith and it became clear to him the following truth: first, that this addition is sound, and second, that the scholars acknowledge its soundness, then I tell you that what was the weaker position in my previous statement becomes the stronger position for me. But why did I say it was the weaker position? Because my mind is empty of the word "spring forth," because I memorize the hadith that the Euphrates and the Nile are from Paradise, that is how I memorize it. If it is established through hadith research that the wording of the hadith is like this, then the answer is very easy. But as you see, what is this based on?

The questioner : On ... .

The Shaykh : It is based on the premise that "spring forth" is established as the weaker position, meaning it is anomalous. But if it is established as sound, then the first answer I gave, which I said was the weaker position, is actually the stronger position. But if it is not established, the answer is very easy. The meaning in that case is that their origin, their origin is from Paradise.

The questioner : You are, I think, the one I answered in one of your books.

The Shaykh : No problem, that does not concern us. Let us return. And if this is my answer in some of my books, it means that I am one of two things: either I am not paying attention to the word "spring forth," or I am paying attention to it and clarifying its weakness or anomaly. I am not giving an opinion now, but based on your statement, I am not giving an opinion now, but based on your statement that you built it in some of the books, then this issue becomes like the issue of Adam (peace be upon him). If a person told us, "The origin of man is from Paradise," there is nothing wrong with it. Man is from Paradise, meaning his origin, his father Adam, is from Paradise. The issue is very clear. The summary and the end of this entire research is what I told you just now: have you grasped the reality? I said at the beginning, the answer is correct, no, and the Muslim must insist on this answer. Why? Because first, my brother, the geographical or photographic, or what is it?

Another questioner : Geographical!

The Shaykh : Geographical, ah. The geographical reality is that people cannot encompass it with knowledge. And this leads to the story of the barrier of Dhul-Qarnayn, and that it is one of the signs of the Hour mentioned in the Qur'an and the Sunnah, that even when, what is it? Yes, and so on. Where is this barrier? Some people said this barrier is China, for example, and so on. We say this report is true, just as you speak, but it is not necessary for the people of Yajuj and Majuj that the disbelievers have encompassed the geographical knowledge of the earth with all its details. This is on earth, so what do you say if the matter is related to the heavens? What do you say if it is related to Paradise? There is no room for the intellect to say this hadith is not reasonable. My brother, it is reasonable, and a hundred times reasonable. Why? Because material science studies material things, and it admits that it has no relation to what is beyond matter. Is that correct or not? Okay, this hadith now is a question of religious and geographical science. Does this hadith study matter or what is beyond matter?

The questioner : This hadith studies matter, the tangible.

The Shaykh : No, it is beyond matter!

The questioner : Or two parts?

The Shaykh : How two parts? No, we are concerned with one part.

Another questioner : From Paradise.

The questioner : Because the Nile and the Euphrates...

The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. Do you know what the subject of the research is? That the Nile and the Euphrates are from the earth. The research is that they are from Paradise. Is the problem here correct or not?

The questioner : It relates to something tangible, something material, I mean. Take me gently, I want to understand, I want to ask: does the hadith relate to something tangible?

The Shaykh : May Allah forgive you, may Allah forgive you. Do you want to research the self-evident? The hadith, as I said, is of two types.

The questioner : Okay.

The Shaykh : We are concerned with one of the two types, and that is his saying: Is this within matter or beyond matter?

The questioner : This is beyond matter.

The Shaykh : But.

The questioner : But it is not just that, but it...

The Shaykh : But what?

The questioner : But it relates to reality, the tangible!

The Shaykh : My brother, the reality...

Another questioner : They have not encompassed it with knowledge... in response to... in the manner of his saying (peace be upon him):

The Shaykh : How... yes, the reality is that the Nile and the Euphrates are in the material earth that we know. But the complete hadith is that, as I said, they spring from Paradise. So, their springing from Paradise, is this from matter or beyond matter?

The questioner : Beyond matter!

The Shaykh : May Allah reward you. Does not this mean we have tired ourselves and wasted time on a subject where there is nothing to differ on? You return and say a part of it is in matter, we believe, and we are done with this.

The questioner : I want to reach issues...

Another questioner : Until... material science has not yet reached absolute laws such that...

The questioner : This is...

The Shaykh : It is not possible... yes.

The questioner : This is what I want to reach, the truth in a phrase in speech.The Shaykh : I mean, what I want to reach in the end is that we distinguish between definitive meaning, for example, in meaning, between the reality that has become certainty, and the scientific law that has become a law and not a theory!