Discussion of what was previously taken.
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The Shaykh : Those who said that the reason for the occurrence of riba in these six categories is a specific cause, what do they cite as the cause, Sa'id?
The student: They differed regarding the cause.
The Shaykh : They also differed regarding the cause, alright.
The student: Some of them said: The cause is measuring by volume and weighing.
The Shaykh : Measuring by volume?
The student: And weighing.
The Shaykh : In what?
The student: Measuring by volume for wheat, barley, dates, and salt.
The Shaykh : Yes.
The student: And weighing for gold and silver.
The Shaykh : For gold and silver, and based on this?
The student: That it is edible and non-edible.
The Shaykh : Based on this, riba occurs in everything that is measured by volume and everything that is weighed.
The student: In everything that is measured by volume and weighed, whether it is edible or non-edible.
The Shaykh : Alright, what is the second opinion? Did the brother not attend? Ah? Did he not attend?
The student: I attended.
The Shaykh : Why, Bandar?
The student: The second opinion is the opinion of al-Shafi'i: Everything that is weighed and everything that is edible, with weighing for gold and silver, and edibility for the remaining four.
The Shaykh : For the remaining four, and based on this, riba occurs?
The student: In what is weighed and what is edible.
The Shaykh : Meaning he said: The cause is weighing for gold and silver, and edibility for the four categories, and on this basis, everything that is weighed has riba in it, and everything that is edible has riba in it.
Alright, this is three opinions, or two opinions among those who cite a cause? Yes. The one behind you, yes?
The student: Weighing for gold and silver, and the third opinion for the remaining four is that they are foodstuffs and are stored.
The Shaykh : Alright, foodstuffs and stored, with measuring by volume.
Alright, there is also an opinion. A fifth opinion?
The student: It was not mentioned.
The Shaykh : How? Yes, the opinion we are mentioning now: The cause for gold and silver is that they are currency, that they are the price of things and the value of things, and the cause for the four is that they are foodstuffs, that they are food for people to eat, and they are not luxuries. To this view, Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) inclined.
And based on this opinion, riba occurs in everything that is currency, whether it is gold or silver or iron or wood or paper or anything else, as long as it is made the price of things, it has riba in it. And what is foodstuff has riba in it, and what is not foodstuff has no riba in it, and what is not currency has no riba in it. And this opinion: meaning there is nothing wrong with it, but it is objected to by the fact that the Sunnah has established the occurrence of riba in gold, and it is not currency, meaning it is not currency, as in the hadith of Fadalah ibn 'Ubayd regarding the purchase of a gold necklace for twelve dinars,.
And it appears to me, and Allah knows best, that we should say: The cause for gold and silver is that they are gold and silver, so riba occurs in gold and silver absolutely, as the text came, whether it is currency or jewelry or nuggets or otherwise, riba occurs in it in all cases.
As for when there is currency other than gold and silver, it is attached to them by analogy due to the doubt that the cause is being currency, meaning there is a strong doubt, and because if we did not attach these currencies to gold and silver, riba would generally be eliminated in the present time, because people now do not deal except with paper money, and if we said there is no riba in it, it would mean that these banks are not dealing in anything forbidden, because there is no riba in paper.
And the jurists (may Allah have mercy on them) said: If the currency is gold and silver, it has riba, riba al-fadl and riba al-nasi'ah. But if the currency is not gold or silver, it has riba al-nasi'ah without riba al-fadl, without riba al-fadl. So they said: There is no riba in copper coins unless they are in circulation, meaning commonly used and traded, in which case they have riba al-nasi'ah without riba al-fadl. Some of them expressed it by saying: There is no riba in them absolutely. But the first opinion: that riba al-nasi'ah occurs in them without riba al-fadl is the correct one. And on this basis, paper money does not have riba al-fadl in it, and riba al-nasi'ah occurs in it. And this is a middle opinion, not like the opinion of one who says: They are merchandise absolutely, there is no riba in them, and there is no zakah in them. And it is not like the opinion of one who says: They are like gold and silver, they have riba al-fadl and riba al-nasi'ah. Rather, this is a middle ground between the two opinions:
That riba al-nasi'ah occurs in them without riba al-fadl, meaning it is not permissible for me to exchange currency for absent currency with a present one, but it is permissible for me to exchange ten for eight present, hand to hand, or more or less, because these things do not have intrinsic value, rather their value is dependent on supply and demand, or dependent on what the state or government determines as their values.
For example, the government determined that the one riyal note is valued at one riyal of metal, and if it wished, it could say: It is valued at two riyals, like half or a quarter, for example. So this is only a regulatory valuation, and on this basis, it can be subject to supply and demand. So if the notes become cheap, the exchange rate of this currency becomes cheaper, and if they become expensive, they become more expensive.
And I remember that people preferred paper money over the silver riyal, and now the silver riyal is worth perhaps fifteen riyals, or ten paper riyals, whereas I remember that when we were reading at the institute, they would ask the students: Do you want paper or a riyal? He would say: No, I want paper. He would say: Sometimes they give them pounds instead of silver. Do you want pounds or paper? Pounds of gold, meaning. He would say: No, I want paper. But the situation has reversed now, it has reversed.
So the most correct opinion in this issue: That the cause for gold and silver is that they are gold and silver, meaning this type has riba in it in all cases. Then, due to the doubt of the cause of being currency, I say: What is made the price of things and their value, riba al-nasi'ah occurs in it without riba al-fadl, because the original state is permissibility:[Al-Baqarah 2:275] until we are certain that it falls under ribawi wealth. And if it were not for the great corruption, we would say: That riba does not occur in them, neither riba al-fadl nor riba al-nasi'ah. But there is no doubt that this opinion leads to great corruption, it leads to the permissibility of riba, and it leads to the dropping of zakah from the rich in the present time, because people's wealth now is paper. So if we said: That they are merchandise absolutely, as some jurists said, riba would drop in them, and zakah would drop, and great corruption would occur.
So the result is that the middle opinion is that we attach them to currency in the obligation of zakah, and in riba al-nasi'ah only, yes.
And this is the choice of our Shaykh 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Sa'di (may Allah have mercy on him). In fact, he (may Allah have mercy on him) permits delaying possession if it is deferred, if there is no term, meaning it means he permits exchanging ten Saudi riyals for one Kuwaiti dinar, for example, with delayed possession, on the condition that the delay is not by deferring a deferred term.
But what I see is that possession is obligatory, the exchange of possession is obligatory before separating, and it is not permissible to separate before possession.
Alright, what do you say, Hajjaj, about a man who exchanged a Moroccan orange for two Egyptian oranges?
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Is it permissible? How? Wrong!
The student: According to the opinion of one who says: The cause applies to what is eaten, it is not permissible. And according to the opinion that...
The Shaykh : Meaning, one who says: The cause is edibility, it is not permissible, alright.
The student: And according to the opinion of one who says: The cause in it is being a foodstuff, it is permissible.
The Shaykh : It is permissible because this is not a foodstuff. And likewise, one who holds that the cause is measuring by volume, it is permissible because this is not measured by volume.
Correct, alright. What do you say about one who exchanged a sa' of sidr for two sa' of husayn? A sa' of dates for two sa' of sidr?
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : In general?
The student: With the exchange of possession.
The Shaykh : Huh?
The student: The exchange of possession of the goods.
The Shaykh : Yes, it does not contradict, it is not needed, the general rule is that they do not exchange possession except immediately.
The student: According to the opinion of one who said that the cause in...
The Shaykh : One who said: The cause is measuring by volume—wait, we don't have it—or weighing, there is no weighing for this.
The student: It is not measured by volume.
The Shaykh : How?
The student: It is not measured by volume.
The Shaykh : How? It is not honey, it is sidr!
The student: Sidr honey?!
The Shaykh : And what does he say?
The student: Sidr honey, there is sidr honey, and there is honey.
The Shaykh : Sidr is bitter, O 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Dawud.
The student: Now they sell honey, O Shaykh, honey from sidr, meaning the bees eat from the sidr.
The Shaykh : The important thing is we don't know this, this is sidr, sidr, which is used to wash the body, this is in the hadith.
The student: According to the opinion of the Hanbalis, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : Let us leave the opinion of the Hanbalis and the Shafi'is and the Malikis, according to the opinion of one who says so and so, because there may be among the Shafi'is one who holds the opinion of the Hanbalis.
The student: Who said that the operative cause is weighing?
The Shaykh : Who said that the operative cause is weighing? My question is: A man sold a sa' of sidr for two sa' of it?
The student: We say: It is not permissible.
The Shaykh : In general?
The student: According to the one who said the operative cause is weighing.
The Shaykh : Ah, good, because it is a weighed item. And what about the one who said the operative cause is food or sustenance?
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Permissible?
The student: Excess is permissible.
The Shaykh : May Allah guide you. The sale is permissible. I am only asking you about the sale, not about the excess!
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Is it permissible? Are you sure?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : Do you agree with this?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : Okay, look, some people, when they are not certain of the answer, they evade. I ask them, "Is it permissible?" and they say, "Excess is permissible." What is excess?! Is the sale permissible or not? Okay, in any case, you have understood the ruling now, if Allah wills. These rulings are built upon the disagreement of the scholars (may Allah have mercy on them) regarding the operative cause of riba. Okay.
The student: This, O Shaykh, is the position of al-Shafi'i. Does he consider the number or the weight?
The Shaykh : He considers neither the number nor the weight. He says that riba applies to it even if it is counted by number.
The student: I mean, one large apple and one small apple?
The Shaykh : No, it appears that weight is considered for these, because weighing them is difficult.
Yes, okay, let us take the next hadith, the one from Abu Hurayrah. He said (may Allah have mercy on him): And from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him).
The student: The benefits.
The Shaykh : How?
The student: The benefits of the two hadiths.
The Shaykh : Okay, it does not contradict.
The student: The first is the hadith of Abdullah ibn Mas'ud.
The Shaykh : The first is the hadith of Abu Sa'id.
The student: Abdullah ibn Mas'ud.
The Shaykh : We did not take the benefits. Okay, good.
The student: The hadith of Abu Hurayrah.
The student: They differed regarding the cause.
The Shaykh : They also differed regarding the cause, alright.
The student: Some of them said: The cause is measuring by volume and weighing.
The Shaykh : Measuring by volume?
The student: And weighing.
The Shaykh : In what?
The student: Measuring by volume for wheat, barley, dates, and salt.
The Shaykh : Yes.
The student: And weighing for gold and silver.
The Shaykh : For gold and silver, and based on this?
The student: That it is edible and non-edible.
The Shaykh : Based on this, riba occurs in everything that is measured by volume and everything that is weighed.
The student: In everything that is measured by volume and weighed, whether it is edible or non-edible.
The Shaykh : Alright, what is the second opinion? Did the brother not attend? Ah? Did he not attend?
The student: I attended.
The Shaykh : Why, Bandar?
The student: The second opinion is the opinion of al-Shafi'i: Everything that is weighed and everything that is edible, with weighing for gold and silver, and edibility for the remaining four.
The Shaykh : For the remaining four, and based on this, riba occurs?
The student: In what is weighed and what is edible.
The Shaykh : Meaning he said: The cause is weighing for gold and silver, and edibility for the four categories, and on this basis, everything that is weighed has riba in it, and everything that is edible has riba in it.
Alright, this is three opinions, or two opinions among those who cite a cause? Yes. The one behind you, yes?
The student: Weighing for gold and silver, and the third opinion for the remaining four is that they are foodstuffs and are stored.
The Shaykh : Alright, foodstuffs and stored, with measuring by volume.
Alright, there is also an opinion. A fifth opinion?
The student: It was not mentioned.
The Shaykh : How? Yes, the opinion we are mentioning now: The cause for gold and silver is that they are currency, that they are the price of things and the value of things, and the cause for the four is that they are foodstuffs, that they are food for people to eat, and they are not luxuries. To this view, Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him) inclined.
And based on this opinion, riba occurs in everything that is currency, whether it is gold or silver or iron or wood or paper or anything else, as long as it is made the price of things, it has riba in it. And what is foodstuff has riba in it, and what is not foodstuff has no riba in it, and what is not currency has no riba in it. And this opinion: meaning there is nothing wrong with it, but it is objected to by the fact that the Sunnah has established the occurrence of riba in gold, and it is not currency, meaning it is not currency, as in the hadith of Fadalah ibn 'Ubayd regarding the purchase of a gold necklace for twelve dinars,
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade selling them until they are separated, because they contain beads
فنهى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أن تباع حتى تفصل ، لأن فيها خرزاAnd it appears to me, and Allah knows best, that we should say: The cause for gold and silver is that they are gold and silver, so riba occurs in gold and silver absolutely, as the text came, whether it is currency or jewelry or nuggets or otherwise, riba occurs in it in all cases.
As for when there is currency other than gold and silver, it is attached to them by analogy due to the doubt that the cause is being currency, meaning there is a strong doubt, and because if we did not attach these currencies to gold and silver, riba would generally be eliminated in the present time, because people now do not deal except with paper money, and if we said there is no riba in it, it would mean that these banks are not dealing in anything forbidden, because there is no riba in paper.
And the jurists (may Allah have mercy on them) said: If the currency is gold and silver, it has riba, riba al-fadl and riba al-nasi'ah. But if the currency is not gold or silver, it has riba al-nasi'ah without riba al-fadl, without riba al-fadl. So they said: There is no riba in copper coins unless they are in circulation, meaning commonly used and traded, in which case they have riba al-nasi'ah without riba al-fadl. Some of them expressed it by saying: There is no riba in them absolutely. But the first opinion: that riba al-nasi'ah occurs in them without riba al-fadl is the correct one. And on this basis, paper money does not have riba al-fadl in it, and riba al-nasi'ah occurs in it. And this is a middle opinion, not like the opinion of one who says: They are merchandise absolutely, there is no riba in them, and there is no zakah in them. And it is not like the opinion of one who says: They are like gold and silver, they have riba al-fadl and riba al-nasi'ah. Rather, this is a middle ground between the two opinions:
That riba al-nasi'ah occurs in them without riba al-fadl, meaning it is not permissible for me to exchange currency for absent currency with a present one, but it is permissible for me to exchange ten for eight present, hand to hand, or more or less, because these things do not have intrinsic value, rather their value is dependent on supply and demand, or dependent on what the state or government determines as their values.
For example, the government determined that the one riyal note is valued at one riyal of metal, and if it wished, it could say: It is valued at two riyals, like half or a quarter, for example. So this is only a regulatory valuation, and on this basis, it can be subject to supply and demand. So if the notes become cheap, the exchange rate of this currency becomes cheaper, and if they become expensive, they become more expensive.
And I remember that people preferred paper money over the silver riyal, and now the silver riyal is worth perhaps fifteen riyals, or ten paper riyals, whereas I remember that when we were reading at the institute, they would ask the students: Do you want paper or a riyal? He would say: No, I want paper. He would say: Sometimes they give them pounds instead of silver. Do you want pounds or paper? Pounds of gold, meaning. He would say: No, I want paper. But the situation has reversed now, it has reversed.
So the most correct opinion in this issue: That the cause for gold and silver is that they are gold and silver, meaning this type has riba in it in all cases. Then, due to the doubt of the cause of being currency, I say: What is made the price of things and their value, riba al-nasi'ah occurs in it without riba al-fadl, because the original state is permissibility:
But Allah has permitted trade
وأحل الله البيعSo the result is that the middle opinion is that we attach them to currency in the obligation of zakah, and in riba al-nasi'ah only, yes.
And this is the choice of our Shaykh 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Sa'di (may Allah have mercy on him). In fact, he (may Allah have mercy on him) permits delaying possession if it is deferred, if there is no term, meaning it means he permits exchanging ten Saudi riyals for one Kuwaiti dinar, for example, with delayed possession, on the condition that the delay is not by deferring a deferred term.
But what I see is that possession is obligatory, the exchange of possession is obligatory before separating, and it is not permissible to separate before possession.
Alright, what do you say, Hajjaj, about a man who exchanged a Moroccan orange for two Egyptian oranges?
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Is it permissible? How? Wrong!
The student: According to the opinion of one who says: The cause applies to what is eaten, it is not permissible. And according to the opinion that...
The Shaykh : Meaning, one who says: The cause is edibility, it is not permissible, alright.
The student: And according to the opinion of one who says: The cause in it is being a foodstuff, it is permissible.
The Shaykh : It is permissible because this is not a foodstuff. And likewise, one who holds that the cause is measuring by volume, it is permissible because this is not measured by volume.
Correct, alright. What do you say about one who exchanged a sa' of sidr for two sa' of husayn? A sa' of dates for two sa' of sidr?
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : In general?
The student: With the exchange of possession.
The Shaykh : Huh?
The student: The exchange of possession of the goods.
The Shaykh : Yes, it does not contradict, it is not needed, the general rule is that they do not exchange possession except immediately.
The student: According to the opinion of one who said that the cause in...
The Shaykh : One who said: The cause is measuring by volume—wait, we don't have it—or weighing, there is no weighing for this.
The student: It is not measured by volume.
The Shaykh : How?
The student: It is not measured by volume.
The Shaykh : How? It is not honey, it is sidr!
The student: Sidr honey?!
The Shaykh : And what does he say?
The student: Sidr honey, there is sidr honey, and there is honey.
The Shaykh : Sidr is bitter, O 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Dawud.
The student: Now they sell honey, O Shaykh, honey from sidr, meaning the bees eat from the sidr.
The Shaykh : The important thing is we don't know this, this is sidr, sidr, which is used to wash the body
Wash him with water and suds.
اغسلوه بماء وسدرThe student: According to the opinion of the Hanbalis, it is not permissible.
The Shaykh : Let us leave the opinion of the Hanbalis and the Shafi'is and the Malikis, according to the opinion of one who says so and so, because there may be among the Shafi'is one who holds the opinion of the Hanbalis.
The student: Who said that the operative cause is weighing?
The Shaykh : Who said that the operative cause is weighing? My question is: A man sold a sa' of sidr for two sa' of it?
The student: We say: It is not permissible.
The Shaykh : In general?
The student: According to the one who said the operative cause is weighing.
The Shaykh : Ah, good, because it is a weighed item. And what about the one who said the operative cause is food or sustenance?
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Permissible?
The student: Excess is permissible.
The Shaykh : May Allah guide you. The sale is permissible. I am only asking you about the sale, not about the excess!
The student: It is permissible.
The Shaykh : Is it permissible? Are you sure?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : Do you agree with this?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : Okay, look, some people, when they are not certain of the answer, they evade. I ask them, "Is it permissible?" and they say, "Excess is permissible." What is excess?! Is the sale permissible or not? Okay, in any case, you have understood the ruling now, if Allah wills. These rulings are built upon the disagreement of the scholars (may Allah have mercy on them) regarding the operative cause of riba. Okay.
The student: This, O Shaykh, is the position of al-Shafi'i. Does he consider the number or the weight?
The Shaykh : He considers neither the number nor the weight. He says that riba applies to it even if it is counted by number.
The student: I mean, one large apple and one small apple?
The Shaykh : No, it appears that weight is considered for these, because weighing them is difficult.
Yes, okay, let us take the next hadith, the one from Abu Hurayrah. He said (may Allah have mercy on him): And from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him).
The student: The benefits.
The Shaykh : How?
The student: The benefits of the two hadiths.
The Shaykh : Okay, it does not contradict.
The student: The first is the hadith of Abdullah ibn Mas'ud.
The Shaykh : The first is the hadith of Abu Sa'id.
The student: Abdullah ibn Mas'ud.
The Shaykh : We did not take the benefits. Okay, good.
The student: The hadith of Abu Hurayrah.