If the truth is made clear to those who engage in figurative interpretation of the attributes, and they persist in their falsehood, are they to be declared disbelievers?
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The questioner : If the truth is made clear to him, and he persists in this matter, he persists in...?
The Shaykh : And he says, "I still consider this to be justified?"
The questioner : He says... but the truth was made clear to him.
The Shaykh : Even if it was made clear to him, as long as he believes that the justification still holds, we do not declare him a disbeliever. However, between him and Allah, he may be a disbeliever. If Allah knows from his intention that he is defiant and that he is not on what he claims, then as for his standing with Allah, we know nothing about it.
The questioner : O Shaykh... he abandoned the prayer, and he means, "I have a justification for it..."
The Shaykh : We call him to repent, and if he repents, well and good; otherwise, we kill him. As for what is between him and Allah, he is on his belief. If the apparent matter is such that we have authority, we execute what his disbelief necessitates, even if he believes it is not disbelief. If he believes it is not disbelief, and we, the rulers, believe it is disbelief, we say, "Either you repent, or we will kill you," and we do not care about his belief. But as for what is between him and Allah in the rulings of the Hereafter, it will be according to the extent of his understanding.
The questioner : ...the hudud (fixed Qur'anic punishments) are established against them...
The Shaykh : Yes, and for this reason, many of the scholars of the Salaf (the earliest generations) declared the Jahmiyyah (a sect that denied the divine attributes) to be disbelievers. Some of them may have been excused because the proof did not reach them, but some of them had the proof reach them, so they declared them disbelievers.
The questioner : And the Mu'tazilah (a rationalist theological sect)?
The Shaykh : Likewise, the extremists among the Mu'tazilah are declared disbelievers. The Salaf have general statements in some places that imply that any figurative interpretation (ta'wil) constitutes disbelief. They have general statements, meaning there is a difference between a specific individual and a general category.
The questioner : And the extremists among the Shi'ah are declared disbelievers?
The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.
The questioner : But their common people are not declared disbelievers?
The Shaykh : We do not know about their common people whether they are defiant. It may be that the truth was not made clear to them, so we leave their matter to Allah. Every Muslim who claims to be a Muslim, whose disbelief has not become clear, and upon whom the conditions of disbelief do not apply, is not declared a disbeliever. As for one who does not claim to be a Muslim, he is known... Even if he is ignorant, we declare him a disbeliever in appearance, such as the common people of the disbelievers today who claim to be Christian or polytheist. These are disbelievers because they did not claim to be Muslim, even if they were excused or misguided. We rule that they are disbelievers in appearance in this world, and we do not rule that they are Muslims. But as for their standing with Allah, their matter is left to Allah. As for one who claims to be a Muslim, the original ruling is that he is a Muslim until the proof is established against him.
The questioner : Is it permissible to deal with them and buy from them?
The Shaykh : It is permissible, just as it is permissible with the disbeliever. The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) dealt with the disbelievers; he dealt with the Jews, bought from them, accepted their invitation, and accepted their sacrificial animals...
The questioner : But for example, we have not ruled that these people are disbelievers or that they are Muslims.
The Shaykh : Who?
The questioner : The Shi'ah?
The Shaykh : No, the leaders of the Shi'ah are undoubtedly disbelievers, because they openly insult the Companions. Yes, and perhaps they curse Abu Bakr and 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with them), refuge is sought in Allah.
The questioner : Well, O Shaykh... we wanted to discuss it with him...
The Shaykh : We give general rules in this place. We give general rules. As for a specific individual, we cannot rule on him. We give general rules regarding one who denies something of the attributes or commits an act of disbelief, whether he is a Shi'i, a Mu'tazili, or whatever he is.
The questioner : ...because some of the brothers say: "Do not debate the Shi'ah, because if you debate them, you will be led to insulting Abu Bakr and 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with them). So you do not debate him, nor do you call him to Islam, nor do you call him to..."
The Shaykh : In any case, a person should use wisdom in these matters. If he has the power to persuade, let him debate them so that he does not leave them upon their falsehood. If he does not have the power and fears that they will expose him to falsehood, he should leave them alone.
The Shaykh : And he says, "I still consider this to be justified?"
The questioner : He says... but the truth was made clear to him.
The Shaykh : Even if it was made clear to him, as long as he believes that the justification still holds, we do not declare him a disbeliever. However, between him and Allah, he may be a disbeliever. If Allah knows from his intention that he is defiant and that he is not on what he claims, then as for his standing with Allah, we know nothing about it.
The questioner : O Shaykh... he abandoned the prayer, and he means, "I have a justification for it..."
The Shaykh : We call him to repent, and if he repents, well and good; otherwise, we kill him. As for what is between him and Allah, he is on his belief. If the apparent matter is such that we have authority, we execute what his disbelief necessitates, even if he believes it is not disbelief. If he believes it is not disbelief, and we, the rulers, believe it is disbelief, we say, "Either you repent, or we will kill you," and we do not care about his belief. But as for what is between him and Allah in the rulings of the Hereafter, it will be according to the extent of his understanding.
The questioner : ...the hudud (fixed Qur'anic punishments) are established against them...
The Shaykh : Yes, and for this reason, many of the scholars of the Salaf (the earliest generations) declared the Jahmiyyah (a sect that denied the divine attributes) to be disbelievers. Some of them may have been excused because the proof did not reach them, but some of them had the proof reach them, so they declared them disbelievers.
The questioner : And the Mu'tazilah (a rationalist theological sect)?
The Shaykh : Likewise, the extremists among the Mu'tazilah are declared disbelievers. The Salaf have general statements in some places that imply that any figurative interpretation (ta'wil) constitutes disbelief. They have general statements, meaning there is a difference between a specific individual and a general category.
The questioner : And the extremists among the Shi'ah are declared disbelievers?
The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.
The questioner : But their common people are not declared disbelievers?
The Shaykh : We do not know about their common people whether they are defiant. It may be that the truth was not made clear to them, so we leave their matter to Allah. Every Muslim who claims to be a Muslim, whose disbelief has not become clear, and upon whom the conditions of disbelief do not apply, is not declared a disbeliever. As for one who does not claim to be a Muslim, he is known... Even if he is ignorant, we declare him a disbeliever in appearance, such as the common people of the disbelievers today who claim to be Christian or polytheist. These are disbelievers because they did not claim to be Muslim, even if they were excused or misguided. We rule that they are disbelievers in appearance in this world, and we do not rule that they are Muslims. But as for their standing with Allah, their matter is left to Allah. As for one who claims to be a Muslim, the original ruling is that he is a Muslim until the proof is established against him.
The questioner : Is it permissible to deal with them and buy from them?
The Shaykh : It is permissible, just as it is permissible with the disbeliever. The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) dealt with the disbelievers; he dealt with the Jews, bought from them, accepted their invitation, and accepted their sacrificial animals...
The questioner : But for example, we have not ruled that these people are disbelievers or that they are Muslims.
The Shaykh : Who?
The questioner : The Shi'ah?
The Shaykh : No, the leaders of the Shi'ah are undoubtedly disbelievers, because they openly insult the Companions. Yes, and perhaps they curse Abu Bakr and 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with them), refuge is sought in Allah.
The questioner : Well, O Shaykh... we wanted to discuss it with him...
The Shaykh : We give general rules in this place. We give general rules. As for a specific individual, we cannot rule on him. We give general rules regarding one who denies something of the attributes or commits an act of disbelief, whether he is a Shi'i, a Mu'tazili, or whatever he is.
The questioner : ...because some of the brothers say: "Do not debate the Shi'ah, because if you debate them, you will be led to insulting Abu Bakr and 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with them). So you do not debate him, nor do you call him to Islam, nor do you call him to..."
The Shaykh : In any case, a person should use wisdom in these matters. If he has the power to persuade, let him debate them so that he does not leave them upon their falsehood. If he does not have the power and fears that they will expose him to falsehood, he should leave them alone.