Explanation of the author's statement: "And speaking to him in it"

The Shaykh : It is also disliked "speaking to him in it". It is disliked to speak, meaning to speak to the one relieving himself, that is, in the place of relief. It is disliked. What is the evidence for this dislike? They cited as evidence that a man passed by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) while he was urinating and greeted him, but the Prophet did not return the greeting. They said, if speaking had been permissible, he would have returned the greeting, because returning the greeting is obligatory. However, the implication of this evidence, or this argument, is prohibition; that it is forbidden to speak while relieving oneself. For this reason, when the author of *al-Nukhbat* Ibn Muflih mentioned this issue, he said, "The apparent argument leads to prohibition, and this is one of the two opinions on the issue." So, speaking while one is relieving oneself is forbidden and not permissible. As for when two people look at each other and converse, it is forbidden without doubt. In fact, the apparent meaning of the hadith reported on this matter, according to the scholars who said so, is that it is among the major sins. This is because the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) informed that if two men do this, Allah will hold them in abhorrence, and abhorrence is the strongest form of hatred. This implies that it is a major sin. As for mere speaking, this is disliked, and the argument is based on the hadith as you have heard. But if someone says that the argument based on the hadith implies prohibition because it involves leaving an obligation, and leaving an obligation is not permissible unless the thing is forbidden, the scholars answered that with two responses. The first response is that the one relieving himself does not deserve a return of the greeting, because it is not appropriate to greet the one relieving himself. We set aside this response. The second response is that the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not leave the obligation absolutely; rather, after he finished, he returned the greeting and apologized for it. So the Prophet knew that he would return the greeting, and the most that can be said is that he delayed the return because he was not in a state of purity. As for the first approach, it is weak, the claim that he greeted him while he did not deserve a return in that state, because the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not attribute the lack of greeting to the fact that you greeted in a state where a return is not deserved. And as for the second, yes, the second is that the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not leave the return absolutely and ignore it, but rather he delayed it, and this does not necessitate the opinion of prohibition. However, if one needs to speak, such as if the water he is using for istinja' runs out and he cannot stand up to finish the istinja', and he calls out to someone, "Give me water," then this is a need, and there is no harm in it. It was forbidden for two men to defecate and then sit to relieve themselves while conversing. It was said, "Indeed, Allah holds them in abhorrence for that." But there is a consideration regarding this argument. Why? Because the evidence is more specific than the ruling derived from it, and the rule in argumentation is not to argue from the specific to the general, but rather to argue from the general to the specific. So the evidence here is about two men who defecated, sat down, and began to converse. This is a situation different from a person merely speaking while in the place of relief. And we say that in such a situation, the least of its states is that it is disliked. The least of its states is that it is disliked, provided that one does not look at the 'awrah of the other. If one looks at the 'awrah of the other, then that is forbidden. In any case, Imam Ahmad (may Allah have mercy on him) explicitly stated that it is disliked to speak while relieving oneself, and he said on another occasion that it is not appropriate. It is known among the followers of Imam Ahmad that when the Imam says "I dislike such and such" or "it is not appropriate," it means prohibition. This is the known position among them.

The questioner : Or he said.

The Shaykh : It is not appropriate. In any case, we see that it is not appropriate to speak while relieving oneself, except as the jurists said, for a need. For example, if he wants to guide someone, or if someone speaks to him and he must return the greeting, or if he has a need regarding a person and fears that the person will leave, and he says, "So-and-so," or something similar to that.