A discussion on the difference between faith and affirmation, and the difference between knowledge and faith.

The Shaykh: Here, Professor, there is no affirmation.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: As for Pharaoh, there is no affirmation. As for Pharaoh and the verse, there is no affirmation from them; so where do we take the affirmation from?
Khalid al-'Anbari: This is regarding Pharaoh and his people.

The Shaykh: The verse, what did Moses say to him?
Khalid al-Anbari : .

The Shaykh: Ah.
Khalid al-Anbari : .

The Shaykh: All right.
Khalid al-'Anbari: .

The Shaykh : .
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: Here there is no affirmation. There is no attribution by Moses (peace be upon him) to Pharaoh that he was an affirmer; because it is not hidden from you that "you know" is in meaning like "you recognize," and as Allah (Mighty and Majestic) said regarding the Jews: , but with this knowledge, did they have faith? I think the answer is no!
Khalid al-Anbari : No, yes.

The Shaykh: Okay, this knowledge which was expressed in the address of Moses (peace be upon him) to Pharaoh: , so "you know" is on the pattern of "you recognize" in both word and meaning.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: This does not mean that they were affirmers; that is: they were believers! Here, there is ambiguity in the matter!
Khalid al-Anbari : Our Shaykh, may Allah bless you, His saying (the Exalted): , does this knowledge not imply that they were in the depths of their hearts affirmers that he is a Messenger, except that they did not bring the remaining pillars of faith of submission and obedience?!

The Shaykh: We should not repeat the speech. Did the Jews believe in the Messenger?
Khalid al-Anbari : They affirmed in him.

The Shaykh: Pardon me, tell me: Did they believe?
Khalid al-'Anbari: No.

The Shaykh : Did they know?
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: Okay, so now there is a clear difference between us that there is a difference between faith and knowledge; so everyone who is a believer knows, and not the reverse; not everyone who knows is a believer. Is the speech proceeding up to here?
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: Very good. Now we take one of the two words and put another word in its place; which is: faith - in my knowledge - faith is synonymous with affirmation, unlike knowledge.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: So then we do not distinguish between so-and-so who is an affirmer in the Messenger and a believer in the Messenger. Is there a difference in what you know?
Khalid al-'Anbari: Yes, there is a difference.

The Shaykh: This is what I need to know, how?
Khalid al-Anbari : Say: An affirmer in the Messenger means that a pillar of the pillars of faith is present in him; which is affirmation with his heart. Perhaps he affirms with his heart but does not acknowledge with his tongue.

The Shaykh : Where do we take this from?
Khalid al-Anbari : Okay, leave that aside, O Shaykh. Perhaps he affirms with his heart but mocks the verses of Allah and His Messengers.

The Shaykh : ... .
Khalid al-Anbari : So this mocking of the verses of Allah and His Messengers means that there is no reverence and love for Allah and His Messengers in his heart; do we not declare him a disbeliever?

The Shaykh: Yes, yes, we declare him a disbeliever.
Khalid al-Anbari : By the absence of this pillar.

The Shaykh: We do not differ in this, may Allah bless you. There are actions that indicate what is in the heart. There are actions that issue from a person that indicate what is in the heart of disbelief and tyranny. Of that is mocking. But our research now is that we understand from your speech that there is a difference between faith and affirmation. So it is as they say in other than this occasion, there is generality and specificity.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: So everyone who is a believer is an affirmer; as I said earlier: everyone who is a believer is a knower. Now you are as if you are placing the word affirmation opposite knowledge!
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: So you want to say - and I hope I am mistaken in what I understood - : that not everyone who is a believer at a moment of moments, I say this restriction so that we do not lean toward saying that something happened to him that indicated that it was disbelief, this comes later. But I say: I understand from your speech that whoever is a believer at a moment of moments is certainly an affirmer and certainly a knower, but whoever is an affirmer at a moment of moments is not a believer. This is how I understand from you; that is: whoever is an affirmer at a moment of moments is not a believer, as we say regarding whoever knows the truth of the Messenger (peace be upon him) at a moment of moments, he is not a believer; because knowledge does not coexist with faith, whereas faith coexists with knowledge.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: But now I am in great doubt about distinguishing between faith and affirmation.
Khalid al-'Anbari: I say.

The Shaykh: Then I want regarding the verse in which it says: , does it mean the meaning of not a believer? This is how I understood from you.
Khalid al-Anbari : I mean by my saying affirmation that it is a pillar of the pillars of faith. I want to be brief.

The Shaykh: No, pardon me, I asked a question.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: I asked a question. The verse: and , is it in the meaning of not faith?
Khalid al-'Anbari: No.

The Shaykh: This is a problem; so where do we come from for a definition of affirmation that differs from faith in some aspect, and the verse is explicit? This - also - I see that it needs contemplation and careful looking; because what has settled in my heart from my old information is not the distinction between affirmation and faith, but the distinction between knowledge and faith. And it is the same for us if we say: the distinction between knowledge and faith, or the distinction between knowledge and affirmation; so affirmation and faith, in what I understand, are one thing; that is: two synonymous words that indicate what has settled in the heart of faith in Allah and His Messenger, whereas knowledge is not so.
Khalid al-Anbari : I mean I see this as a verbal difference, but you are with me without a doubt that affirmation is a pillar of the pillars of faith, and that the man may be an affirmer and become a disbeliever, and the word of disbelief is applied to him if he commits an action from the actions of disbelief like mocking Allah and His Messenger. You are with me in this - O Shaykh - may Allah bless you?

The Shaykh: No.
Khalid al-Anbari : That, yes.

The Shaykh: But I say: when the believer disbelieves with a disbelief that takes him out of the religion, did he remain a believer?
Khalid al-'Anbari: No.

The Shaykh: Okay, when the affirmer disbelieves with a disbelief that takes him out of the religion, did he remain an affirmer? According to what I understood, you will say: Yes.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: Yes, this distinction I want clarification for.
Khalid al-Anbari : I said - O Shaykh - may Allah keep you safe, was Iblis an affirmer or not?

The Shaykh: He disbelieved, he was an affirmer and a believer.
Khalid al-Anbari : But is he still an affirmer or not?

The Shaykh: This is an argument for us. He disbelieved, the one who was an affirmer and was considered a believer. As for you, according to your distinction between the two matters, you combine the two opposites; so at the time that you distinguish between affirmation and faith, leave that and this distinction now. Before the disbelief of Iblis, was he a believer or not?
Khalid al-Anbari : He was a believer.

The Shaykh: Okay, and when he disbelieved, did he remain a believer?
Khalid al-Anbari : A disbeliever.

The Shaykh: may Allah bless you - the question so that the sin and the jim are clarified.
Khalid al-Anbari : He was not a believer.

The Shaykh : May Allah reward you.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh: This is it. Okay, before he disbelieved, was he an affirmer?
Khalid al-Anbari : And after he disbelieved, he was an affirmer. I answered and added.

The Shaykh: No problem, what is the evidence?
Khalid al-Anbari : The evidence is that he saw the truth with his own eyes and was commanded and addressed.

The Shaykh: What is the evidence from the Qur'an or the Sunnah or the sayings of the Imams that affirmation differs from faith, meets with faith and differs from it as we said in knowledge completely? So now our example is the accursed Iblis, by the agreement of everyone, was a believer, then when he disbelieved in his denial, the judgment of Allah (Mighty and Majestic) in such as His saying: , he disbelieved; that is: he did not remain a believer. But I say - also - he did not remain an affirmer; because if he was an affirmer and remained an affirmer, he would have prostrated.
In summary: so that we do not waste time, and Glorified and Exalted is He, time passes. I hope you will reconsider this point; because there is precision involved in it on one hand, and on the other hand, to the extent of my knowledge—and above every person of knowledge is the All-Knowing—I do not know that the scholars distinguish between faith (iman) and affirmation (tashdiq). The texts that pass by us, which we may forget, and we mentioned one of them just now, are synonymous with faith entirely, and ; that is: he is a believer. So if you want to say: No, affirming (mushaddiq) does not mean believing (mu'min); you need texts from the Book and the Sunnah, and at least texts from the sayings of the Imams of the Salaf whom we follow as a model. So I hope you will reconsider this point; because as you know, the goal does not justify the means in our view; meaning, if we want to use this aspect to refute the Murji'ah, and we were mistaken in distinguishing between affirmation and faith, it would mean that we have destroyed our own houses with our own hands. So I hope you will reconsider this point, and gather whatever evidence you can from the Book or the authentic Sunnah, and then from the sayings of the Imams regarding the distinction between affirmation and faith, at least so that I may learn what was hidden from me.
Khalid al-'Anbari: All right, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : And now.
Khalid al-Anbari: I see that the disagreement is still verbal, and I recite to you the saying of our Lord: So our Lord disbelieved them—Blessed and Exalted is He—although they were aware of the truthfulness of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). And here is a word from Ibn al-Qayyim who said: "And whoever reflects upon the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and the conduct of the Prophets with their nations and their calling of them, and what happened between them, will be certain of the error of the people of Kalam (theologians), including the Murji'ah, in what they said, and will know that the majority of the disbelief of the nations was with certainty, knowledge, and awareness of the truthfulness of their Prophets." This is the end of the words of Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allah have mercy on him) the Exalted. So I want...

The Shaykh : This is what we said just now, and you agreed with me.
Khalid al-'Anbari: Therefore, I say that the disagreement is verbal, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : That knowledge may coexist with faith, and may not coexist with it.
Khalid al-Anbari: Okay, I say: O Shaykh, may Allah bless you, if I withdraw from the word "affirmation" (tashdiq), and I say: That Iblis, after he did not comply with the command of our Lord—Blessed and Exalted is He—Allah—Majestic and Exalted—disbelieved him, and after his disbelief he knew that Allah is the Truth, and that what he was commanded to do was something he had to comply with, and he knew the truthfulness of Allah—Majestic and Exalted—and the truthfulness of what he was commanded. So let us leave the word "affirmation" and put in its place the word "knowledge" (ma'rifah). And we say likewise: That the people of Moses, when they disbelieved in him, knew and were aware that he was the Messenger of Allah in truth, and yet our Lord—Blessed and Exalted is He—disbelieved them. So disbelief is not confined to denial by the heart. What is your opinion of this statement?

The Shaykh : What do I see but that we are going in a circle! Did I not say: Knowledge does not necessitate faith, and you are now not adding to this; whether you brought the example of Iblis or Pharaoh; we are in agreement.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : That faith coexists with knowledge, and not the reverse; knowledge does not coexist with faith.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : We are in agreement on this.
Khalid al-'Anbari: ... the disagreement is verbal.

The Shaykh : Allow me.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes, indeed.

The Shaykh : No, the disagreement is verbal regarding this point, and he might say, but regarding what you say: Affirmation is not faith, and you make affirmation as if it is synonymous with knowledge; here there is a real disagreement, not verbal. The important thing, may Allah bless you, La ilaha illa Allah, La ilaha illa Allah.
Pharaoh, excuse me, the accursed Iblis, we are in agreement that he disbelieved after he was a believer.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : And I directed a question: So after he disbelieved, did he remain a believer? I said: No, but you said: He remained what? An affirmer (mushaddiq)!
Khalid al-Anbari: I withdrew from it, and I say.

The Shaykh : No, no, you withdrew from it.
Khalid al-Anbari: He was aware or knowledgeable.

The Shaykh : You withdrew from it.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : This withdrawal may be for the sake of discussion now, but I hope you will reconsider and study the issue anew. Either your study leads you to remain on what you were, distinguishing between affirmation and faith; and this is contrary to the explicit verse in the Qur'an. Or you make affirmation the same as faith, and that faith and affirmation are two synonymous terms, unlike knowledge. So if we return to the disbelief of Iblis, Iblis disbelieved, and here is a point: Iblis did not disbelieve merely because he opposed the command of Allah.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : But rather because he was arrogant, by the text of the Noble Qur'an: Ha. So mere opposition and sin, according to all the people of the Sunnah, is not a cause for declaring someone a disbeliever.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : But if something is accompanied with this sin that indicates disbelief of the heart, even after it was filled with faith; then this faith falls and disappears because of this disbelief, which is considered creedal disbelief...