A discussion between Shaykh Al-Albani and his brother Khalid al-'Anbari regarding some of his statements, and about the difference between faith and affirmation, and the difference between knowledge and faith.

The Shaykh : Here, Professor, there is no affirmation.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : As for Pharaoh, there is no affirmation. As for Pharaoh, the verse indicates that there was no affirmation from them, so where do we take affirmation from?
Khalid al-'Anbari: This is regarding Pharaoh and his people.

The Shaykh : The verse... What did Musa say to him?
Khalid al-'Anbari:

The Shaykh : Ah, yes.
Khalid al-'Anbari:

The Shaykh : Fine.
Khalid al-'Anbari: .

The Shaykh : .
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : Here there is no affirmation, there is no attribution to Musa (peace be upon him) that Pharaoh was an affirmer, because it is not hidden from you that "you know" is in terms of meaning like what is said "you recognize", and as Allah (Mighty and Majestic) said regarding the Jews But with this knowledge, did they have faith? I think the answer is no!
Khalid al-'Anbari: No, yes.

The Shaykh : Okay, this knowledge which was expressed in the address of Musa (peace be upon him) to Pharaoh "so you will know" is on the pattern of "you know" in both wording and meaning.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : That is, this does not mean that they were affirmers, meaning they were believers, here it means there is ambiguity in the matter!
Khalid al-'Anbari: Our Shaykh, may Allah bless you, His saying (the Exalted) This knowledge does not imply that they were in the depths of their hearts affirmers that he is a Messenger, except that they did not bring the remaining pillars of faith of submission and obedience.

The Shaykh : We should not repeat the speech, did the Jews believe in the Messenger?
Khalid al-'Anbari: They affirmed in him.

The Shaykh : Excuse me, tell me, did they believe?
Khalid al-'Anbari: No.

The Shaykh : Did they know?
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : Okay, so now there is a clear difference between us that there is a difference between faith and knowledge, so everyone who is a believer knows, and not the other way around, not everyone who knows is a believer, is the speech going up to here?
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : Very good, now we take one of the two words and put another word in its place, which is faith. In my knowledge, faith is synonymous with affirmation, unlike knowledge.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : So then we do not distinguish between so-and-so who affirms in the Messenger and so-and-so who believes in the Messenger, is there a difference in what you know?
Khalid al-'Anbari: Yes, there is a difference.

The Shaykh : This is what I need to know, how?
Khalid al-'Anbari: Say "affirming in the Messenger" means that a pillar of the pillars of faith is present in him, which is affirmation with his heart, perhaps he affirms with his heart but does not acknowledge with his tongue.

The Shaykh : Where do we take this from?
Khalid al-'Anbari: ... O Shaykh, perhaps he affirms with his heart and mocks the verses of Allah and His Messengers.

The Shaykh : ... .
Khalid al-'Anbari: So this mocking of the verses of Allah and His Messengers means that there is no reverence and love for Allah and His Messengers in his heart, do we not declare him a disbeliever?

The Shaykh : Yes, yes, we declare him a disbeliever.
Khalid al-'Anbari: ... this is the pillar.

The Shaykh : We do not differ on this, may Allah bless you, there are deeds that indicate what is in the heart, there are deeds that issue from a person that indicate what is in the heart of disbelief and tyranny, of which is mocking, but our research now is that we understand from your speech that there is a difference between faith and affirmation, so it is as they say in other than this occasion, there is generality and specificity.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : So everyone who is a believer is an affirmer, as I said just now, everyone who is a believer is a knower, now you are as if you are placing the word affirmation opposite knowledge!
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : So you want to say, and I hope I am mistaken in what I understood, that not everyone who is a believer at a moment of moments, I say this restriction so that we do not lean toward saying it is exposed to this thing, so it indicates that it is disbelief, this comes later, but I say I understand from your speech that whoever is a believer at a moment of moments is certainly an affirmer and certainly a knower, but not whoever is an affirmer at a moment of moments is a believer, this is how I understand from you, meaning whoever is an affirmer at a moment of moments is not a believer, as we say regarding whoever knows the truth of the Messenger (peace be upon him) at a moment of moments, he is not a believer, because knowledge does not coexist with faith, but faith coexists with knowledge.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : But I am now in great doubt about distinguishing between faith and affirmation.
Khalid al-'Anbari: I say.

The Shaykh : Then I want regarding the verse in which does it mean the meaning of not a believer? This is how I understood from you.
Khalid al-'Anbari: I mean by my saying affirmation that it is a pillar of the pillars of faith, I want to be brief.

The Shaykh : Excuse me, I asked a question.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : I asked a question, the verse is it in the meaning of not faith?
Khalid al-'Anbari: No.

The Shaykh : This is the problem, so where do we come from for a definition of affirmation that differs from faith in some aspect, and the verse is explicit, this also I see that it needs contemplation and careful looking, because what has settled in my mind from my old information is not the distinction between affirmation and faith, but the distinction between knowledge and faith, and it is the same for us if we say the distinction between knowledge and faith or the distinction between knowledge and affirmation, affirmation and faith in what I understand are one thing, meaning two synonymous words indicating what has settled in the heart of faith in Allah and His Messenger, but knowledge is not so.
Khalid al-'Anbari: I mean I see this is a verbal difference, but you are with me without a doubt that affirmation is a pillar of the pillars of faith, and that the man may be an affirmer and be a disbeliever and the word of disbelief is applied to him if he commits an act of the acts of disbelief such as mocking Allah and His Messenger, you are with me on this O Shaykh, may Allah bless you?

The Shaykh : No.
Khalid al-'Anbari: By saying yes.

The Shaykh : But I say when the believer is declared a disbeliever by a disbelief that takes him out of the religion, did he remain a believer?
Khalid al-'Anbari: No.

The Shaykh : Okay, when the affirmer is declared a disbeliever by a disbelief that takes him out of the religion, did he remain an affirmer? According to what I understood, you will say yes.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : That is, this distinction I want for it an explanation.
Khalid al-'Anbari: I said O Shaykh, may Allah keep you, was Iblis an affirmer or not?

The Shaykh : He disbelieved, he was an affirmer and a believer.
Khalid al-'Anbari: But is he still an affirmer or not?

The Shaykh : This is an argument for us, he disbelieved, the one who was an affirmer and was considered a believer, but you, according to your distinction between the two things, you combine the two opposites, so at the time that you distinguish between affirmation and faith, leave that, and this distinction now, before the disbelief of Iblis, was he a believer or not?
Khalid al-'Anbari: He was a believer.

The Shaykh : Okay, and when he disbelieved, did he remain a believer?
Khalid al-'Anbari: A disbeliever.

The Shaykh : Answer, may Allah bless you, the question so that the sin and jim are clarified.
Khalid al-'Anbari: He was not a believer.

The Shaykh : May Allah bless you.
Khalid al-'Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : This is it, okay, before he disbelieved, was he an affirmer?
Khalid al-'Anbari: And after he disbelieved, he was an affirmer, I answered and added.

The Shaykh : No problem, what is the evidence.
Khalid al-'Anbari: The evidence is that he saw the truth with his own eyes and ordered...

The Shaykh : What is the evidence from the Qur'an, the Sunnah, or the statements of the Imams that *tashdiq* (affirmation) is distinct from *iman* (faith), that it coincides with *iman* and is distinct from it, just as we said regarding *ma'rifah* (knowledge)? Now, our example is Iblis the accursed. By the consensus of all, he was a believer. Then, when he became a disbeliever in his rejection of the judgment of Allah the Exalted, as in His saying: he became a disbeliever, meaning he was no longer a believer. But I also say he was no longer one who affirms, because if he had been affirming and remained affirming, he would have prostrated. In summary, so that we do not waste time, and glory to Allah, time is passing, I hope you will reconsider this point, because it involves precision on one hand, and on the other hand, I do not claim to know beyond what I have learned, and above every possessor of knowledge is the All-Knowing, that the scholars distinguish between *iman* and *tashdiq*. The texts that pass by us, which we may forget, and we mentioned one of them just now, are exact synonyms for *iman*: meaning he is a believer. So if you want to say "not affirming," you do not mean "not a believer." You need texts from the Book and the Sunnah, and at least texts from the statements of the Imams of the Salaf whom we follow. So I hope you will reconsider this point, because as you know, the end does not justify the means. That is, if we wanted to respond to the Murji'ah from this aspect, and we were mistaken in distinguishing between *tashdiq* and *iman*, it would mean that we have destroyed our own houses with our own hands. So I hope you will reconsider this point and gather whatever evidence you can from the Book or the authentic Sunnah, and then from the statements of the Imams regarding the distinction between *tashdiq* and *iman*, at least so that I may learn what was hidden from me.
Khalid al-'Anbari: All right, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : And now.
Khalid al-'Anbari: I see that the disagreement is still verbal, and I recite to you the saying of our Lord: So our Lord, Blessed and Exalted is He, declared them disbelievers, even though they knew the truth of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). And here is a word from Ibn al-Qayyim, who said: "And whoever reflects upon the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and the conduct of the Prophets with their nations and their calling of them, and what happened between them, is certain of the error of the people of Kalam (theologians), including the Murji'ah, in what they said, and knows that the majority of the disbelief of the nations was due to certainty, knowledge, and awareness of the truth of their Prophets." This is the end of the words of Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allah have mercy on him). So I want to...

The Shaykh : This is what we said just now, and you agreed with me.
Khalid al-'Anbari: Therefore, I say that the disagreement is verbal, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : That *ma'rifah* (knowledge) may coincide with *iman* (faith) and may not coincide with it.
Khalid al-'Anbari: All right, I say, O Shaykh, may Allah bless you. If you withdraw from the word *tashdiq* (affirmation) and say that Iblis, after he did not obey the command of our Lord, Blessed and Exalted is He, was declared a disbeliever by Allah the Exalted, and that after his disbelief he knew that Allah is the Truth and that what He commanded must be obeyed, and he knew the truth of Allah the Exalted and the truth of what He commanded, then let us leave the word *tashdiq* and put the word *ma'rifah* (knowledge) in its place, and say likewise that when the people of Moses disbelieved in him, they knew and recognized that he was truly the Messenger of Allah, and yet our Lord, Blessed and Exalted is He, declared them disbelievers. So disbelief is not confined to denial in the heart. What is your opinion of this statement?

The Shaykh : I do not see... we are going in circles. And I said that *ma'rifah* (knowledge) does not necessitate *iman* (faith), and you are not adding to this now, whether you bring the example of Iblis or Pharaoh. We are in agreement.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : That *iman* (faith) coincides with *ma'rifah* (knowledge), but not the reverse; *ma'rifah* does not coincide with *iman*.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : We are in agreement on this.
Khalid al-'Anbari: ... the disagreement is verbal.

The Shaykh : Allow me.
Khalid al-'Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : No, the disagreement is not verbal regarding this point, and it may be so, but regarding what you say that *tashdiq* is other than *iman* and you make *tashdiq* as if it is a synonym for *ma'rifah*, here there is a real disagreement, not verbal. The important thing, may Allah bless you, La ilaha illa Allah, La ilaha illa Allah.
Pharaoh, excuse me, Iblis the accursed. We agree that he became a disbeliever after he was a believer.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : And I directed a question: after he became a disbeliever, did he remain a believer? I said no, but I said he remained what? An affirmer!
Khalid al-'Anbari: I withdrew from it and I say...

The Shaykh : No, no, I withdrew from it.
Khalid al-'Anbari: He was knowing or aware.

The Shaykh : I withdrew from it.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : This withdrawal may be for the sake of discussion now, but I ask you to reconsider and study the issue anew. Either your study leads you to remain with what you were, distinguishing between *tashdiq* and *iman*, and this is contrary to the explicit verse in the Qur'an, or you make *tashdiq* the same as *iman*, and that *iman* and *tashdiq* are two synonymous terms, unlike *ma'rifah*. So if we return to the disbelief of Iblis, Iblis became a disbeliever, and here is a point: Iblis did not become a disbeliever merely because he opposed the command of Allah.
Khalid al-Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : But rather because he was arrogant, by the explicit text of the Noble Qur'an: So mere opposition and sin, according to all the people of the Sunnah, do not become a cause for declaring someone a disbeliever.
Khalid al-'Anbari: Yes.

The Shaykh : But if something is coupled with this sin that indicates disbelief of the heart, even after it was filled with faith, then this faith is overturned and removed due to this disbelief, which is considered creedal disbelief.