The students mention other forms of dealing with traveler’s checks

The questioner: Shaykh, there is ... another benefit.

The Shaykh : What?

The questioner: In another benefit in ... .

The Shaykh: We are not talking about benefits.

The questioner: I mean, specifically regarding this matter.

The Shaykh: We want to uncover the secret of how banks deal with this transaction.

The questioner : Yes, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh: I found it difficult that here there is no benefit for the second bank. The first bank is clear; it received the money and worked with it. The second bank has no benefit now. Abu al-Harith is coming to give an answer. If the issue is that every bank gives to the other, meaning profit by a certain percentage, and you believe the operation is like this, we do not want the benefits.

The questioner: No, Shaykh, it is not a benefit. A benefit for the subject, Shaykh, not a benefit for ... .

The Shaykh: Please, peace be upon you ... .

The questioner: The value of this, Shaykh, which is this traveler’s check in US dollars.

The Shaykh: All right.

The questioner: Its value is one dollar, but here I guarantee that if this check is lost, which is ... .

The Shaykh: Even if it is not lost.

The questioner: Allow me, Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Do not impose hypotheticals on me.

The questioner: Shaykh, I want to tell you now. Its value is like the dollar. The dollar now, Shaykh, when you go to the bank, you take its value at the actual price of that day, meaning like buying and selling. And this is a triple check, Shaykh, or the traveler’s check, which is also called by the price in dollars. Its price might be, for example, it might decrease, it might increase. This is the benefit that the banks obtain. There is nothing else like this.

The Shaykh: Well, when the value increased, who profited?

The questioner: When the value increased.

The Shaykh: Who profited? The one who deposited it.

The questioner : Yes, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Well, what did the bank profit?

The questioner: Shaykh, these are known transactions, Shaykh, regarding the agreement.

The Shaykh: Go ahead.

The questioner: ... My Shaykh, this bank from which you took this traveler’s check, and also the bank in America. Foreigners will come to Jordan, so they will take traveler’s checks from American banks and cash them here. So the operation, my Shaykh, is international. Traveler’s checks are international checks, from which international dealings between all countries are derived. Just as the Jordanian bank, for example, the Arab Bank, gives the check and deposits a value of money in it, so the American bank deposits the amount in it for the American man who will visit Jordan ... it becomes an exchange, my Shaykh. So that bank benefits from the deposit value for which it gave a traveler’s check, and also the Jordanian bank benefits in the case of giving and taking this ... And Allah knows best. This is, of course, my Shaykh, through our dealings with transfers. My Shaykh, we used to ask the bank owners, "What do you benefit when you transfer the remittances to Jordan?" They said, "Similarly, Jordan transfers remittances to us, so there becomes an exchange between us. We benefit and they benefit from the riba which they call interest."

The Shaykh : Yes.

The questioner: And Allah knows best, my Shaykh.

Another questioner: And if nothing is transferred in it.

The questioner: No, there is a transfer. There is an international matter. An international matter, this is known.

Another questioner: Allow me, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Go ahead.

Another questioner: These checks, my Shaykh, any grocery store, any supermarket, anyone cashes them. There is no specific place. By virtue of the signature on them, they give you the change.

The Shaykh: This is what Abu al-Harith spoke about.

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh: Yes.

The questioner: I mean, there is no specific bank or specific place. Anyone who comes to you, they cash it for you by virtue of this check.

The Shaykh: Well, what does the grocer benefit?

The questioner: He benefits as if he took it in cash.

The Shaykh: He takes it from the bank, meaning?

The questioner : Yes, exactly ... .

The Shaykh: At the same value?

The questioner: At the same value.

The Shaykh: Well, is there then a benefit other than what our brother mentioned just now? And the last speaker, the khatib, is there a benefit other than this exchange? Our brother the khatib who spoke last.

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh: Is there a benefit other than this exchange, like the transfer? Please?

The questioner: Allow me, Shaykh. Shaykh, once, my Shaykh, I sent a check to America. When I got the check back, they deducted an amount from me. This is the same thing. The traveler’s check, when they cash it from the bank, they must deduct from it. The check ... they consider it a commission.

The Shaykh : ... .

The questioner: Yes, they consider it, meaning, for example, if it is one hundred dinars, they deduct five dinars for transportation fees and things like that.

The Shaykh: Do you guarantee this statement?

The questioner: But this is a known transfer ... .

The Shaykh: Be patient ... .

The questioner: They take a thousand from you and return a thousand to you.

Another questioner: Allow me, Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Go ahead.

The questioner: Now, Shaykh, sometimes some customers come to me with dollars. I say, "I only have Jordanian dinars. I will buy with dollars, meaning at the Jordanian value." So I take from him, for example, just a thousand. What is the price of the dollar now? He says, for example, sixty-five. I calculate one hundred dollars at sixty-five, and I agree with him regarding the value I want from him. And the check, Shaykh, is the same thing. But you guarantee, my Shaykh, from the perspective of unity, my Shaykh. If it is not the same signature, it is difficult to attribute it to its original owner. But the dollar, if it is signed by two hands, people, any person can cash it. This is what we understand from the checks: two signatures, my Shaykh. One signature at the time of purchase and one signature at the time of, meaning, at the time of cashing.

Another questioner: There is a point after, if you allow, my Shaykh.

The Shaykh: Go ahead.

The questioner: Shaykh, every person when they issue any quantity of traveler’s checks, this point may clarify it to you because it is a very important point. They make him sign a paper with phone numbers, because traveler’s checks are a fixed currency like the regular dollar, meaning, but they are only cashed with your signature. So for traveler’s checks, they give you a paper with a model of your signature, which is sent to all banks in the world from which this check will be cashed. This paper, they advise you to keep it in a place, meaning, not in your pocket, in a place where you can return, meaning, find it.

The Shaykh : How do you mean?

The questioner: I mean, these checks are one hundred dollars each, but they do not move except with the signature.

The Shaykh: All right.

The questioner: In case the checks are lost from you, you must call the branch you are going to, for example, in America. They advise you to call this so that your money is returned to you. Traveler’s checks are generally stopped, unlike the dollar. The dollar, if five hundred dollars are lost from it, anyone who finds it goes and cashes it. But this, because I went to America and did it and inquired about it, this was ... .

The Shaykh: Well, what is the result? What is this?

The questioner: Shaykh, as we mentioned, customers benefit. Customers profit. Customers.

The questioner: Like one who deposits an amount in the bank.

The Shaykh: No, but here, Abu 'Abdullah, it seems to me now that they may benefit here if these numbers are lost, they cannot retrieve this money.

The questioner: These numbers are for the benefit of the customer, Shaykh.

The Shaykh: For the benefit.

The questioner: It is gone. Anyone who will sign it, he may sign it and pay it. This is for your benefit so that you can stop the cashing process immediately.

Another questioner: I mean, a general notice on the number, my Shaykh.

Another questioner: A general notice immediately. But the news must be generalized in all banks of the world: "Stop these numbers, such and such checks, checks, not the check number. Every check has a serial number with its sibling."

The Shaykh: Well, it seems to me that I understand from you that you are confirming that there is no benefit except the issue of exchange.

The questioner : Only?

The Shaykh: But I mean.

The questioner: But it is only this. There is nothing else. But it is a circulating currency. He takes it and gives you currency in exchange for money. It is not cashed except with your signature only.

The Shaykh: I mean, this is safer than the dollar.

The questioner: Yes, it is a dollar, but ... .

The Shaykh: Safer, safer.

The questioner: Yes, safer, my Shaykh, only. I think America ... this plan.

The Shaykh: Of course, the issue remains.

The questioner: ... the Arab one.

The Shaykh: The issue remains. After we have reached this conclusion and result, the thinking is: Is there in participating in such checks assistance to these banks in riba, or not? Here is the place of questioning now. It appears to me, and Allah knows best, and as the jurists say: "The fatwa is according to the text." If the matter is like this, I do not find in that any objection or violation of the Shari'ah. This is what appears to me, and Allah knows best.