Depositing the funds of associations in banks.

The Shaykh : I would like, if you permit, to add a note regarding, or an addition to, the words of the professor. Do you imagine an Islamic Salafi charitable association that has a safe to keep the available funds, and this money is not placed in one of the banks? Does such a thing exist? Inform me with knowledge.

The questioner : O Shaykh, regarding this topic, there is no doubt that it must exist. This must exist, but this ... .
Abu Malik : ... Excuse me, Shaykh, and what did he say? He said it must exist.

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik : He said, is it

The Shaykh : Is it existing?

The questioner : ... I mean, as a condition of the governments. The governments require, or require that the capital, or that it has capital, be in the bank.
Abu Malik : I got the answer.

The questioner : Yes, but I say that what the brother Abu Malik pointed to applies to all the remaining charitable works. For example, this might apply to justice, the judiciary, leading the mosques, preaching, sermons, Hajj. All these matters require dealing with the state ... .

The Shaykh : I do not think you are saying that all these matters are the same.

The questioner : In the sense that the matter returns to the fact that those in charge assess the benefits and harms in such a topic. Otherwise, it would encompass everything. It should be generalized that all works should not deal with governments ... .

The Shaykh : We stop at your word "those in charge," those in charge.

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : These people in charge are from the people of knowledge, virtue, righteousness, and piety.

The questioner : The matter returns to

The Shaykh : Let us assume also that they are so, is that not the case?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Good, and they see that depositing charitable money in a bank that deals in riba is permissible?

The questioner : They say, for example ... .

The Shaykh : Excuse me, I am asking a clear question. It is not a matter of saying "permissible." You say yes or no. You do not need to tire yourself, and perhaps others, by saying "they say." We know what they say, but you inform me: do these people, whom we assumed are from the people of knowledge, goodness, and righteousness, see that depositing money, the money of zakah and the money of charities, in a bank that deals in riba is permissible?

The questioner : Yes, they see that, and this does not contradict their righteousness, knowledge, and piety.

The Shaykh : You added to the answer.

The questioner : Because it is a matter of ijtihad (independent legal reasoning).

The Shaykh : You added, may Allah reward you with good. Good, and how do they interpret His saying (peace and blessings be upon him) at that time?

The questioner : They do not eat, they do not eat the riba, no ...

The Shaykh : They are entrusted with it, they are entrusted with it, they are entrusted with it, Do they eat the riba, or is there no difference between the two matters?

The questioner : We do not differentiate.

The Shaykh : Then what is your answer, as you know?

The questioner : Allah knows best.

The Shaykh : Allah knows best.
Abu Malik : But, Shaykh,

The Shaykh : This is a problem.
Abu Malik : Shaykh, the hadith of the noble brother, the hadith of the brother, in reality, he is speaking about the general problem under which the black Muslims live in all their homelands.

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik : As a result of the control of the Western capitalist system over the lives of Muslims in all their affairs. So I say we give an example of this, and this is a matter in which all of us may be involved. None of us is without a car or thinking of buying a car. And there is no doubt that the laws prevent you from owning a car unless there is an insurance policy kept with you. So one of two things: either you are scrupulous to the extent that you refuse to buy a car and walk on your feet, at a time when you know that the car has become a necessity of life, or you buy the car, and buying the car necessarily commits you to this policy to put it in your car pocket to show it when it is required to be shown. So what do we say in such a case? Is it permissible to deal to the extent that is needed, or is it not permissible to own the car? We look to the answer from our Shaykh, may Allah bless you.

The Shaykh : It occurred to me to say, regarding the words of the brother just now, when you said, "they are not the same," do you remember?
The Shaykh : Now, a baker sells bread to the manager of the riba bank. Is this baker equal in aiding this great usurer in his riba to the employee working for him? Are they equal, for example? This is what I wanted to say. When you deposit your money in the bank and you are able to preserve it, you are not compelled to be an agent for the riba. So what is the excuse of Muslims today, that even in charitable associations they deposit their money and defile it with the defilement of riba by placing it in the bank? It is what the professor pointed to just now, that the existing system in these countries is a capitalist system that does not allow an association to have a safe in the Islamic way. But there is an exit, there is an exit, because in reality, Islam, with the vastness of its legislations, which are countless regarding its rules, has made an exit for everything. Now, instead of depositing the money in the bank and the bank benefiting from it, we deposit it, if we are not able to take a special safe in the association with its employees, its guards, etc., this requires a special study. If this is not possible, one rents a safe from the bank and pays the fee for this safe to preserve this money, to which the hand of the riba bank does not extend. This is an exit from the exits. Why do charitable associations not resort to it? Because they do not think of treating matters within the limits of the Shari'ah rulings. Therefore, we are in need of what we mentioned just now, of the necessity of establishing the Shari'ah rulings in all our transactions, including charitable associations. However, we return and mention that we do not advise our brothers, the students of knowledge, to occupy themselves with this charitable work, because there are other people for this work who have not been created with a love for knowledge and a desire to seek knowledge. So every field has its place. And what the professor pointed to just now, that these associations may lead to, I mean, hatred, enmity, arrogance, etc., this, unfortunately, is a reality. But in my belief, it is necessary what is necessary. It is necessary to realize the warning contained in the saying of Allah the Exalted: It is obligatory that we exhort one another to the food of the poor, and among that is this charitable cooperation. But it will not be, and will not be, charitable except by linking this project to the Shari'ah rulings, and that it be carried out by other than students of knowledge.
Abu Malik : Shaykh, you asked a question.

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik : You said, why are these funds not placed in special safes in the banks and their fees paid?

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.
Abu Malik : First, the banks do not agree to such a transaction. I say the banks allow these funds or valuable items to be placed inside these rented safes, because the matter does not require the association, institution, merchant, or company to open this safe daily and deal with it.

The Shaykh : Open the window.
Abu Malik : In what is called the current account.

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik : It is coming, I mean, current, debtor. So this account does not allow such a thing, because the bank is not prepared every day to open the safe and deposit in it. Perhaps the deposit requires the employee to pass by the bank two or three times a day. And therefore, the bank does not allow such a thing. It tells him, take out your money, is that not so? Is that not so? Yes, brother Rami, brother Rami, by virtue of his specialization, knows this. This, in reality, can be realized if the money is deposited for savings only. But if it is for daily transactions, this is not possible. And therefore, even this condition is not realized for such associations and institutions.

The Shaykh : I seem to see something regarding this explanation, and may Allah reward you with good.
Abu Malik : And you.

The Shaykh : I do not know such detail as I heard just now, and I assume that the reality is so, after we derive from the one described as being of his specialization.
Abu Malik: Yes, exactly.

The Shaykh : Yes, but it seems to me that, assuming the matter is as restrictive as we heard earlier, the problem can also be solved practically. The association may have millions in its possession, so it can deposit these millions in a fund called the Trust Fund and keep in its own account only what it needs to manage its affairs over a period of, say, one, two, or three months. I am not an expert on these associations; I am just using my mind and intellect. By doing so, we escape this restriction, which is a legal matter, unfortunately, if that is the case. With this solution, the association keeps in its own account thousands of dinars to cover its specific expenses and costs until, perhaps after a month or two, this usurious bank allows it to request opening the fund to withdraw a certain amount. This is what seems to me mentally and intellectually. Now, let us benefit from the professor here.

Another questioner : By Allah, O Shaykh, even this is difficult, and I expect the association will not be able to comply with this requirement, because the association always has large projects and donations, and therefore it needs funds with very high liquidity.
Abu Malik: To permanent liquidity.

Another questioner : And therefore, banks always provide these associations with many benefits that they do not provide to other customers. This is one aspect. The second aspect is...

The Shaykh : Excuse me, what did I say at the end?

Another questioner : Therefore, banks usually provide these cooperative associations with very significant benefits.

The Shaykh : We need to know what they are.

Another questioner : ... They demand funds from them...

The Shaykh : What are these benefits?

Another questioner : For example, one of these benefits is that they grant them the freedom to withdraw and deposit funds in certain ways. These are banking methods that are difficult to explain now, but they try to attract these associations by every possible means.
Abu Malik: By inducements, meaning.

Another questioner : By inducements, meaning, significant inducements. Also, referring to what our professor and Shaykh Abu Malik mentioned, there is another important point regarding the donors, O Shaykh. Cooperative associations usually have accounts in all branches. For example, a person is in Aqaba, another is Jordanian, another is in Irbid, and so on, while the association's headquarters is, for example, in Amman. How can he reach it? Let us suppose there are two or three thousand people in Aqaba, or more, and in Irbid...

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.

Another questioner : ... ten thousand, he can do so through the bank branch there in Aqaba. He just sends a paper, even if he sends it with any person, to transfer from his account to the association's fund account. This is, of course, a great facilitation for people, and consequently, these associations receive large amounts of money. So practically, it is impossible... This is the problem now, as they informed our Shaykh, the professor. These banks have become like an octopus; you cannot get rid of them.
Abu Malik: There is something else symbolic.

Another questioner : Yes.
Abu Malik: It is prohibited for associations to keep in their safe...

Another questioner : Yes, exactly.
Abu Malik: ... except a small, specified amount. It is not permissible for them to keep thousands; rather, if they keep anything, it should be hundreds, not exceeding the figure of thousands.

The Shaykh : Yes.
Abu Malik: That is practically impossible to implement. If we stop at this... O Shaykh, but we know, as we have discussed this topic at length, that associations lead their members or shareholders into labyrinths of enmity, hatred, envy, and discord. The nature of associations, O Shaykh, I know several here, and the competition between them leads to conflict even among those of the same methodology. I recall that two Islamic associations here, one of which was established and active, then another association was established. This other association began to incite against the first...

The Shaykh : There is no power nor strength except with Allah.
Abu Malik: ... the association, yes, and said that this association does not achieve the benefit or strive for the things that I achieve in my association. Therefore, the first association died, and the second association lived at the expense of the first, even though they are all of the same methodology.

Another questioner : This point... is an addition, a technical addition, to be considered as information.

The Shaykh : Please go ahead.

Another questioner : Of course, what prevails now, let us say, for committed people, if they are forced to deal with these banks, is to open a current account. The definition of a current account, of course, in Islamic banks—we are speaking of its definition—is that it is a current benevolent loan.

The Shaykh : How?

Another questioner : Its definition in Islamic banks is that this account is called a current account, O Shaykh, and it is accompanied by a checkbook. Its status is that it is a current benevolent loan, meaning that whenever you request this amount, even if it is in the hundreds of millions, it is paid to you at any time.
Abu Malik: ... O Shaykh, it is naming it by other names.

The Shaykh : Meaning, they name it by other than its true name.
Abu Malik: By other than its true name, yes.

Another questioner : Meaning, this is their legal classification; their legal classification is...
Abu Malik: The legal classification, not the religious one.

Another questioner : They, of course, say it is a religious classification, because they named it a current benevolent loan, as they do not charge any interest or any profits on it.
Abu Malik: Yes, exactly.

Another questioner : This is whenever you request the amount, it is given to you or paid to you. For example, if you deposit it today and request it tomorrow, it is paid to you in full. But the rest of the accounts, such as a savings account or a deposit account, you must keep a certain amount in the account and it is not permissible to withdraw it before a specified period. Consequently, most of these... But of course, at the same time, when you added it, it is the most profitable account for the bank.
Abu Malik: Of course.

Another questioner : Because it is not committed to paying you anything; it can utilize these funds within two days and use this money.

The Shaykh : There is no god but Allah

Another questioner : And earn a great deal from it, yes.