The Shaykh’s discussion with an Azhari Shaykh regarding: (That Allah is in the sky).

The Shaykh: His opinion, yes, the point is that I remember clearly, on the occasion of Al-Azhar al-Sharif, that it affirms this creed. Abu Ahmad erred, and the one who handed him the cup erred. I erred in not warning you, so the beginning was an error on his part, and I followed him. Perhaps this is upon him – he laughs.The Shaykh : (may Allah have mercy on him) – I remember clearly, about ten years ago or more, we were in Mina during Hajj. On one of the beautiful nights in Mina, the atmosphere there was calm, and our Lord was manifesting Himself to His servants. I sat talking with some pilgrims there, some from Egypt, some from Syria, and so on. When an Egyptian Azhari man entered, he sat down after the greeting. He sensed that the one speaking had a specific direction, meaning with the bold pen they call Wahhabi, while we call it Salafi. He wanted to raise an issue, saying that the Wahhabi group are anthropomorphists (mujassimah) and say that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is in the sky and has risen above the Throne. I listened to him so I could respond to him. When he finished speaking, I said to him, O Shaykh: Is this the speech of humans or the speech of Allah? He said: No, rather it is the speech of Allah. I said to him: I heard you say that the Wahhabis say this, that this is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds. What did the poor man say? He said: It is true that this is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds, but the meaning is not as they say. What do they say? I asked him. He said: They say that meaning He is above. I said to him: Well, what is the meaning that is different from this? He said: No, its meaning is that we have confined our Lord to a place. Here is the point and the joke. I said to him: O Shaykh, you are misunderstanding the group. They purify Allah from being in a place, and those who oppose them are the ones who place Allah in a place. He said: How? I said to him: Is a place created or pre-existing? He said: No, created; because what comes into being, its command is that when He wants something, He says to it "Be" and it is. We said to him: Well, now we are sitting here in Mina, are we not in a place? He said: Yes. We said to him: What is above us? He said: The lowest sky. I said to him: A place? He said: Yes. And what is above the lowest sky? Without a long story, it is the seventh sky. And what is above the seventh sky? He said: The Throne. And we said to him: Well, what is above the Throne? Here is the joke and the point. He said: The Cherubim angels.

The questioner:....

The Shaykh: The Cherubim, this is a transmitted expression but it is not correct. I ignored the issue and said to him: What are the Cherubim angels? He said: They are angels that our Lord created. I said to him: Are these above the Throne? He said: Yes. I said to him: Is there a verse that they are above the Throne? Is there: a verse that the Cherubim angels have risen above the Throne? He said: No. I said to him: Well, is there a hadith? He said: No. I said to him: Strange! But where did this creed come from for you? He said: Al-Azhar al-Sharif taught us this. I said to him: Glory be to Allah! And here is the point. Here is the point. I said to him: Glory be to Allah! Al-Azhar al-Sharif affirms that a sound hadith with a established chain from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) does not establish a creed. Well, here there is no verse and no hadith, where did you bring this creed from? In any case, this is an interjection regarding him. I want to continue the discussion with him regarding . We said to him: Well, we will overlook this creed which you admitted has no basis in the Book or the Sunnah, but it is an Azhari creed. Let us assume for the sake of argument that above the Throne are Cherubim angels, and what is above the Cherubim angels? He said: There is nothing. We said to him: Well. I forgot to mention something important to you: When I asked him about the place being derived from "was" and "becomes" and so on, he said yes. I said to him: Is the universe limited or unlimited? He said: Limited. We said to him: So even if we continued our search until we reached the Throne, and he brought up the myth of the Cherubim angels and I followed him, then I said to him: Suppose there are Cherubim angels, what is after that? Is there anything there? Did the universe end? He said: The universe ended. He said: The universe ended. Meaning there is no place left, there is no place left. So when we say the Most Merciful rose above the Throne, why do you accuse us of placing Him in a place? There is no place, O people, by our admission and the agreement of all, that the universe is limited, and the last of the universe, that which has nothing after it, is the Throne. And our Lord (Mighty and Majestic) is above the Throne, above the creations, all of them, as the jurist poet also said:
"And the Lord of the Throne is above the Throne, but without description of settling or connection."
He is the One who is free of need from the worlds, but there is no escape, rationally and religiously, from saying that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is above all the creations; because He is free of need from the worlds, or we say He is inside all the creations, within them, and as they say, the mixing of water with ice, and some of the extremists of the Sufis said, "And Allah is not but like water in ice," or something like that. The summary is important: either we say that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is above all the creations, or we say He is inside them, or we say as I heard one of my Shaykhs in Damascus, on the pulpit, on the greatest day, Friday, saying: "Allah is not above, nor below, nor right, nor left, nor in front, nor behind, nor inside the world, nor outside it, not connected to it, nor separated from it." If this description were said to the most eloquent of the Arabs in speech and expression, "Describe for us the non-existent," he would not be able to describe it more than describing these ones' object of worship, "Allah is not above, nor below, nor right, nor left, nor in front, nor behind, nor inside the world, nor outside it, not connected to it, nor separated from it." This is the non-existent, this is the non-existent. And I was very pleased with the word of one of the intelligent princes, Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah have mercy on him and reward him for Islam with good). He struggled greatly in the path of defending the methodology of the Salaf. And as you know, always, the people of innovation rise up against the people of the Sunnah, especially in the past and in the time of Ibn Taymiyyah, all the Shaykhs were against him, so they complained to the prince in Damascus, and they asked him to gather them with him in order to establish the proof against him before you. So the prince summoned them and the discussion began on some creedal points, including that Ibn Taymiyyah says Allah (Mighty and Majestic) has the attribute of elevation, above all the creations. They say no, Allah is in every place, just as you hear in this time, at the slightest opportunity they tell you Allah is present in all existence. How is Allah present in all existence? From among existence, the sewers, the corridors, the bathrooms, the bars, the inns, the taverns... and so on, Allah is present in all existence.
The summary: The discussion took place between Ibn Taymiyyah and the Shaykhs, so Ibn Taymiyyah established the proof against them, with words like what you heard and more. What did this intelligent, reasonable prince say? And he was not a scholar, but he heard the discussion between Ibn Taymiyyah and the group of Shaykhs, so he said about the Shaykhs: These are a people who have lost their Lord – he laughs.The Shaykh : (may Allah have mercy on him) – This is a comment; because they do not know. No one says that Allah is not above, nor below, nor right, nor left... to the end of this closing formula. These people have truly lost their Lord, they do not know the Lord they worship. When you prostrate, you say "Glory be to my Lord, the Most High," you do not know! Glory be to my Lord, the Most High, is He in every place? What does "Glory be to my Lord, the Most High" mean? , meaning He is above; therefore it is very, very, very necessary that we adhere to this methodology, which is acting according to the Book and the Sunnah, and on the methodology of the righteous Salaf; and therefore the people of knowledge said: And all good is in following those who came before, and all evil is in innovating from those who came after. And my apologies for the length.

The questioner : And: May Allah reward you with good.

The questioner: You said that our Lord has no movement... the proofs

The Shaykh : I did not say that He has motion. They say, when they interpret it, that "Your Lord has come," they say, "No, Allah does not come, neither in spirit nor in body." Why? Because our Lord is not described with motion. But we say, we do not say that our Lord moves; because the attribute of moving or not moving is not mentioned in the Qur'an or the Sunnah. However, it is explicitly mentioned that He comes and that He descends. So if they interpret "came" to mean motion, we do not interpret it that way, but we do not deny the coming. We do not say "Your Lord has come" means "the command of your Lord," and we do not say "our Lord descends" means "His mercy." Do you understand? Perhaps you were confused by our statement that we do not say our Lord moves.
Al-Halabi : And we affirm the coming.

The Shaykh : Yes, but in contrast, we affirm the coming. This is similar to another issue. Motion attributed to Allah has not been mentioned, neither in the negative nor in the affirmative. Is that clear up to this point?

The questioner: Yes.

The Shaykh : This resembles another word, related to the divine elevation. Is it permissible to say that Allah is in a direction? Ibn Taymiyyah has sound words on this issue. He said, "We do not say that Allah is in a direction, and we do not say that He is not in a direction; because the word 'direction' has not been mentioned, neither in the negative nor in the affirmative. But if we are asked, as we were asked there in Mina..."