The Shaykh’s discussion with an Azhari Shaykh regarding Allah’s rising above the Throne.

The Shaykh: In one of the seasons of Hajj, and on some days in Mina, we were there, and praise be to Allah, sitting in a blessed evening. Some of the pilgrims were gathered sitting with us, talking about the scientific discourse that our Lord had made easy for us. An Azhari Shaykh passed by, heard a religious hadith, and sat down. There is no doubt that every scholar, when he engages in a research topic and another scholar sits with him, understands his orientation, for example, whether he is Salafi, Khalafi, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Sunni, or Shi'a, and so on. The man sensed, in his own opinion, from the method of research that my method is upon the methodology of the pious predecessors. This implied, as is the opinion of many of the masses of students of knowledge and Shaykhs, that this style of speech implies that I am a Wahhabi. It is clear that the Wahhabis, who are the Najdis, are accused regarding their creed, their school of thought, and so on. And these are, without doubt, accusations that have no basis. We are Hanbalis and adhere to the school of the Imam Ahmad, whether in the principles, meaning the creed, or the branches. The important thing is that you, O people of...

The questioner: The man said, May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh: How.

The questioner: The man said, Repeat the word. The man said.

The Shaykh: Ah, the man said, You mean there is good and blessing in you, but you are those who ascribe a body to Allah and liken Him to creation. I said to him, How? He said, Because you make Allah (Mighty and Majestic) — rather, you say that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) has risen above the Throne. I said to him, O Shaykh, this is our speech; this is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds. He said, Correct, but I mean that by your belief in this verse, you take it at its apparent meaning. That is the crux of the matter, in a place. I said to him, O my brother, we believe in what came in the Book and the Sunnah without likening Allah to creation and without denial of the divine attributes.

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh: Without likening Allah to creation and without denial of the divine attributes. And now we prove to you, in your own language and with your own knowledge, that we do not say that Allah is in a place when we say: or . He asked, How? I asked him the previous question and what follows it. I said to him: Is a place something existent or non-existent? He said, Non-existent. I said to him, Good. Is this existent thing limited or absolute? Is the universe limited or absolute? He said, Limited. Good, we ask a question and he gives an answer with no disagreement in it. I said, Good, now what is above us? He said, The first heaven of the world. I said, And the second and the third? He said, Yes. And the seventh? He said, Yes. I said, And above the seventh? I said, What is there? He said, The Throne. I thought we had finished with the created things, that was what I thought, but he came to me with the Arabic expression "baq'ah" and the Syrian expression "mufkhutah." Why? Why? I said to him, And what is above the Throne? What did I think he would say? He would say: And then he surprised me with the "mufkhutah." What did he say to me? Above the Throne are the Kerubiyun. I said to him, What are the Kerubiyun? He said, Those are angels. I said, Is there a verse that mentions that there are angels named Kerubiyun, first, and that they are above the Throne? He said, No. I said to him, Is there a hadith from the Messenger (peace be upon him)? He said, No. I said, Then where did you get this from? And this is a matter of the unseen to say that above the Throne there are angels and these angels are named Kerubiyun.
The student: Through kashf.

The Shaykh: Where did you get this from? He said, The scholars of al-Azhar taught us this. I said, Glory be to Allah. I know about the scholars of al-Azhar that they say the creed is not taken except from a mass-transmitted report, not just an authentic hadith. It must be what? A mass-transmitted report. How did you take this creed? There is not a single hadith, meaning an authentic one, that is not mass-transmitted. This is one point. Let us suppose that above the Throne there are angels named Kerubiyun, because we always say to our brothers, our style, as you saw, is that what does not come with you, come with it. That a person must be broad in taking and giving. Well, you believe that above the Throne there are angels named Kerubiyun, and above these angels, what is there? He said, Nothing. I said, Glory be to Allah. Is it not enough for you now to testify with your own tongue against yourself that the Salafis, whom you call Wahhabis, if they say Allah is above the Throne, they did not place Him in a place? Because by your admission, the place ends for us at the Throne, and for you at the Kerubiyun. And above the Kerubiyun there is no place. So then, Allah, we who believe that He is above all created things, we believe that He is not in a place. So with these correct concepts that respond to the verses of the attributes and the exalting of the Lord of the Worlds from being likened to created things, we believe that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) has risen above the Throne with a rising that befits His majesty and greatness. So Allah, with our belief in all these attributes, is not in a place. On this basis.