The Shaykh’s mention of the discussion that took place between him and the Azhari regarding the place of Allah (Mighty and Majestic).
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The Shaykh : The discussion that took place, and preserve it well.
The questioner: Yes, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : When we accused the Azhari, in his own words, that you Wahhabis are anthropomorphists, and that we place Allah in a place!
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : So my discussion with him went as follows: Is the place you mean existential or non-existent? He said: It is existential. I said to him: Do you mean that the place was non-existent, then Allah created the place? He said: Yes. I said: Is the place and everything that exists in this universe limited or unlimited? He said: Limited. I said: Good, up to here we agree with you. So now, on earth, what is above us? He said: The lowest heaven. I said: And the seventh heaven? He said: Yes. I said to him: Is all of this a place? He said: Yes. I said: And above the seventh heaven, what is there? He said: The Throne of the Most Merciful. I said: Is that a place? He said: Yes. I said: And above the Throne of the Most Merciful, what is there? He said: The Kerubiyun angels. Do you know what I said at that point?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : I said to him: Where did you get this from? Is there a hadith that says?
The questioner : My Shaykh, please, so that you don’t leave Egypt, I, 'Abd al-Latif, will buy whatever you need, please.
The Shaykh : That the Kerubiyun angels are on the Throne, where did you get this from? He said: This is what they taught us in the Noble Al-Azhar. I said: The Noble Al-Azhar says that a creed is not established by a solitary hadith, even if it is authentic. So there is no authentic hadith in this creed, so how did you say that above the Throne of the Most Merciful there is what?!
The questioner : The Kerubiyun angels.
The Shaykh : There are Kerubiyun angels, suppose that above the Throne there are Kerubiyun angels, and we say this to you for the sake of argument.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : And above the Kerubiyun, what is there? He said: Nothing. I said to him: Is nothing a place? He said: No. I said: So we say that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is above the Throne, as He said in the clear Qur'an, and above your Kerubiyun angels, so why do you accuse us of placing Allah in a place?! The Azhari was confounded and fell silent. This is a very important point.
The questioner : Very good.
The Shaykh : It is obligatory to discuss these falsifiers on this basis, because I know that people like us, the Salafis, discuss using only the narration.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : And it is obligatory that the discussion be based on both narration and understanding, clear?
The questioner : Yes, my Shaykh, but I want to repeat this issue because you said: The Salafis discuss using only the narration, and it is supposed to be based on narration and understanding, meaning the narration of the hadith, its jurisprudence, and its correct understanding.
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner: Yes, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : When we accused the Azhari, in his own words, that you Wahhabis are anthropomorphists, and that we place Allah in a place!
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : So my discussion with him went as follows: Is the place you mean existential or non-existent? He said: It is existential. I said to him: Do you mean that the place was non-existent, then Allah created the place? He said: Yes. I said: Is the place and everything that exists in this universe limited or unlimited? He said: Limited. I said: Good, up to here we agree with you. So now, on earth, what is above us? He said: The lowest heaven. I said: And the seventh heaven? He said: Yes. I said to him: Is all of this a place? He said: Yes. I said: And above the seventh heaven, what is there? He said: The Throne of the Most Merciful. I said: Is that a place? He said: Yes. I said: And above the Throne of the Most Merciful, what is there? He said: The Kerubiyun angels. Do you know what I said at that point?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : I said to him: Where did you get this from? Is there a hadith that says?
The questioner : My Shaykh, please, so that you don’t leave Egypt, I, 'Abd al-Latif, will buy whatever you need, please.
The Shaykh : That the Kerubiyun angels are on the Throne, where did you get this from? He said: This is what they taught us in the Noble Al-Azhar. I said: The Noble Al-Azhar says that a creed is not established by a solitary hadith, even if it is authentic. So there is no authentic hadith in this creed, so how did you say that above the Throne of the Most Merciful there is what?!
The questioner : The Kerubiyun angels.
The Shaykh : There are Kerubiyun angels, suppose that above the Throne there are Kerubiyun angels, and we say this to you for the sake of argument.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : And above the Kerubiyun, what is there? He said: Nothing. I said to him: Is nothing a place? He said: No. I said: So we say that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is above the Throne, as He said in the clear Qur'an, and above your Kerubiyun angels, so why do you accuse us of placing Allah in a place?! The Azhari was confounded and fell silent. This is a very important point.
The questioner : Very good.
The Shaykh : It is obligatory to discuss these falsifiers on this basis, because I know that people like us, the Salafis, discuss using only the narration.
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : And it is obligatory that the discussion be based on both narration and understanding, clear?
The questioner : Yes, my Shaykh, but I want to repeat this issue because you said: The Salafis discuss using only the narration, and it is supposed to be based on narration and understanding, meaning the narration of the hadith, its jurisprudence, and its correct understanding.
The Shaykh: Yes.
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.