The story of an incident that happened to the Shaykh in Mina with some Al-Azhar scholars, along with a continuation of the refutation of the Mu'attilah.

The Shaykh : The point is, I remember clearly, on the occasion of Al-Azhar al-Sharif and that it establishes this creed... Abu Ahmad made a mistake, and the one who handed him the cup made a mistake, because you did not warn him, so the error started from him and you followed him... I remember clearly, meaning ten years ago or more, we were in Mina during Hajj, and on one of the beautiful nights in Mina, the weather there was calm and our Lord was manifesting Himself to His servants. I sat talking with some pilgrims there, among them were people from Egypt, from Syria, and so on. When an Egyptian Al-Azhar scholar entered, he sat down after the greeting. He sensed that the one speaking had a specific direction, meaning with the broad pen they call Wahhabi, while we call it Salafi. He wanted to stir up a problem, and he said that the Wahhabi group are those who ascribe a body to Allah, saying that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is in the sky and has risen above the Throne. I listened to him in order to respond to him. When he finished speaking, I said to him, O Shaykh, Is this the speech of humans or the speech of Allah? I heard you say that the Wahhabis say this. This is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds. What did the poor man say? He said, "Yes, this is the speech of the Lord of the Worlds, but the meaning is not as these people say." What do these people say? I asked him. They say that , meaning He is above. I said to him, "Or what other meaning is there besides this?" He said, "No, it means that we confined our Lord to a place." And here is the point and the joke. I said to him, "O Shaykh, you are misunderstanding the group. They purify Allah from being in a place, and those who oppose them are the ones who place Him in a place." He said, "How?" I said to him, "Is a place created or pre-existing?" He said, "No, it is created, because what comes into being ." We said to him, "Okay, now we are sitting here in Mina, are we not in a place?" He said, "Yes." We said to him, "What is above that?" He said, "The lowest heaven." I said to him, "A place?" He said, "Yes." I said to him, "And above the lowest heaven... the seventh heaven, and what is in the seventh heaven?" He said, "The Throne." We said to him, "Okay, and what is above the Throne?" Here is the joke, he said, and here is the point, "The Kerubiyun angels."

The questioner : Who?

The Shaykh : The Kerubiyun angels.

The questioner : Meaning the angels who are brought near?

The Shaykh : No, no, the Kerubiyun. This term is transmitted but it is not correct. I ignored the issue and said to him, "What are the Kerubiyun angels?" He said, "This is a type of angels that our Lord created." I said to him, "Are these above the Throne?" He said, "Yes." I said to him, "Is there a verse that they are above the Throne?" Is there a verse that He rose above the Throne, the Kerubiyun angels? He said, "No." I said, "Is there a hadith?" He said, "No." I said to him, "Strange. Okay, where did this creed come from you?" He said, "Al-Azhar al-Sharif taught us this." I said to him, "Glory be to Allah. Here is the point. I said to him, 'Glory be to Allah, Al-Azhar al-Sharif establishes that a hadith that is authentic and whose chain is established from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) does not establish a creed. Okay, here there is no verse and no hadith, where did you get this creed from?' In any case, this is an interjection regarding him. I want to continue the conversation with him regarding . We said to him, "Okay, let us ignore for now this creed which you admitted has no basis in the Book or the Sunnah, but it is an Al-Azhar creed. Let us assume for the sake of argument that there are Kerubiyun angels above the Throne, and above the Kerubiyun angels, what is there?" He said, "There is nothing." We said to him, "Okay, let us mention something to you, and it is important. I said to him, when I asked if a place is derived from 'what comes into being' and so on, he said, 'Yes.' I said to him, 'Is the universe limited or unlimited?' He said, 'Limited.' We said to him, 'Then our search led us to the Throne, and he brought up the myth of the Kerubiyun angels, and I followed him later and said to him, 'Suppose there are Kerubiyun angels, what is after that? Is there anything there? Did the universe end?' He said, 'The universe ended.' So, is there no place left? There is no place left. So, when we say the Most Merciful is above the Throne, why do you accuse us of placing Him in a place? There is no place, by our admission, and by the agreement of all, that the universe is limited, and the end of the universe, which has nothing after it, is the Throne, and our Lord (Mighty and Majestic) is above the Throne, above all creations, as the jurist poet also said:
"And the Lord of the Throne is above the Throne, but *** without the description of being situated in it or connected to it".
He is the One who is free of need from the worlds, but there is no escape, rationally and religiously, from saying that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is above all creations, because He is free of need from the worlds, or we say that He is in all creations, inside them, and as they say, the mixing of water with ice, and some of the extremists of the Sufis said, and what is Allah but what...
Another questioner: But a monk in a church.

The Shaykh : Like water in ice or something like that... the important thing is either we say that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) is above all creations, or we say He is inside them, or we say as I heard one of my shaykhs in Damascus, on the pulpit, on the greatest day, Friday, say, "Allah is not above, not below, not right, not left, not in front, not behind, not inside the world, not outside it, not connected to it, not separated from it..." If it were said to the most eloquent of the Arabs in speech and expression, "Describe for us the non-existent," he could not describe it with more than what these people describe their object of worship. Allah is not above, not below, not right, not left, not in front, not behind, not inside the world, not outside it, not connected to it, not separated from it. This is the non-existent, this is the non-existent. Therefore, I was very pleased with the word of one of the intelligent princes, Ibn Taymiyyah, may Allah have mercy on him and reward him for Islam with good. He struggled greatly in the defense of the methodology of the Salaf. And as you know, the people of innovation always rise against the people of the Sunnah, especially in the past and in the time of Ibn Taymiyyah, all the shaykhs were against him, so they complained to the prince in Damascus... The discussion began on some creedal points, including that Ibn Taymiyyah says Allah (Mighty and Majestic) has the attribute of being above all creations. They say, "No, Allah is in every place," just as you hear in this time, at the slightest opportunity, they tell you, "Allah is present in every existence." How is Allah present in every existence? Among the existences are sewers, drains, toilets, bars, and inns, and so on. Allah is present in every existence. In summary, a discussion took place between Ibn Taymiyyah and the shaykhs. Ibn Taymiyyah established the proof against them with this kind of speech that you heard and more. What did this intelligent, reasonable prince say? He was not a scholar, but he heard the discussion between Ibn Taymiyyah and the group of shaykhs, so he said about the shaykhs, "These are a people who have lost their Lord." This is a correct statement, because one says, "Not above, not below, not right, not left," and so on, this whole closing phrase. These people have indeed lost their Lord, they do not know the Lord they worship. When you prostrate, you say, "Glory be to my Lord, the Most High," but he does not know, "Glory be to my Lord, the Most High," He is in every place. What does "Glory be to my Lord, the Most High" mean? Meaning He is above. Therefore, it is very, very necessary that we adhere to this methodology, which is acting according to the Book and the Sunnah, and on the methodology of the righteous Salaf. And therefore, the people of knowledge said:
"And all good is in following those who came before, *** and all evil is in innovating those who came after". And I apologize for the length.