What is the meaning of: (except that you see clear disbelief)

The questioner : Regarding the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) , what is meant by disbelief? Is it practical or creedal?

The Shaykh : Creedal.

The questioner : Regarding his statement in another hadith as well, , and we know that the one who abandons prayer does not become a disbeliever for abandoning it, how do we reconcile the two statements? Or the two hadiths? Or the two narrations?

The Shaykh : The contradiction has not been clarified to me so that we can attempt to reconcile them. Explain the contradiction to me.

The questioner : The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) says:

The Shaykh : Do not repeat the previous speech. Explain, I say.

The questioner : We know that abandoning prayer is not creedal disbelief, and in the other hadith , I said that it is creedal disbelief, so how do we reconcile them?

The Shaykh : Do you want to say that abandoning prayer is like creedal disbelief?

The questioner : No, I intended that this is practical disbelief here,

The Shaykh : I understood this.

The questioner : I say that it is practical disbelief.

The Shaykh : Say what the contradiction is so I can understand it, so that I can remove it if there is a contradiction. That is, the Messenger says it is not permissible to rebel against the imams or the rulers except that we see disbelief.

The questioner : Clear.

The Shaykh : No, I do not want us to repeat the phrase "creedal disbelief" like that. And here in the second hadith, "they did not establish prayer," meaning do not rebel against them if they did not establish prayer. So, in your opinion, the second hadith contradicts the first hadith, and the first hadith contradicts the second hadith. So, their establishing prayer is a preventing cause for fighting them, correct? A preventing cause for fighting them. This means that we did not see clear disbelief, correct or incorrect?

The questioner : Correct.

The Shaykh : Weak, it came out of you.
Al-Halabi : It occurred to me after, with your permission, my teacher, that perhaps I understood now the question he is asking: "except that you see clear disbelief" means creedally.

The Shaykh : We rebel against them.
Al-Halabi : No, this is the first point in it.

The Shaykh : I don't care, but what is the meaning?
Al-Halabi : Going out.

The Shaykh : This is good.
Al-Halabi : Now, let us suppose they said: if they do not establish prayer among you, then if they abandon it, do we rebel against them?

The Shaykh : If they abandon it, do we rebel against them? No, we do not rebel against them.
Al-Halabi : Here is the problem. If we said we rebel against them, they would have committed practical disbelief and we would have rebelled against them. Here is the locus of the problem.

The Shaykh : We are now understanding from this hadith something different from what you understand. "They established prayer among you" is not "they established prayer for themselves." Is there a difference between the two for you?

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Okay, so if the meaning is "they did not establish prayer among you," does the problem disappear or does it remain?

The questioner : It disappears.

The Shaykh : That is it.

The questioner : Our Shaykh, it seems there is a narration, .

The Shaykh : This is what I mean. This is what I mean.