A discussion on the increase and decrease of faith.

The questioner : In it, O our Shaykh, there was a lesson in which there was a banquet. When you were at a banquet, a man spoke with you—Allah knows best, he was from the Tawhid Party—who said that the foundation of faith should not decrease, even though it may increase. Here I found a statement by Ibn Batil with this meaning. He said, "Ibn Batil said: 'The variation in affirmation is according to the degree of knowledge and ignorance. So whoever has little knowledge, his affirmation is like the measure of a speck of dust, and whoever is above him in knowledge, his affirmation is the measure of a barley grain or a wheat grain. However, the foundation of affirmation that is in the heart of each of them does not permit decrease, but it permits increase with the increase of knowledge and witnessing.'" So what is your explanation of this statement by Ibn Batil?

The Shaykh : Before this statement, what did you understand from the session, and what is your position on this issue: does faith increase and decrease, or not?

The questioner : Yes, I read the words of ... .

The Shaykh : This statement in this field, this statement of Ibn Batil supports this statement. Yes, because what he transmitted from Ibn Taymiyyah does not negate that this faith, which is firm affirmation, does not negate that this firm affirmation accepts increase. And as I gave you an example, this place where we were, no matter how much light we shine on it, it accepts increase. And so is faith. Faith is like light; it accepts increase and it accepts decrease. But it must reach a point where if it decreases from it, faith falls and disbelief takes its place. But this point accepts increase and accepts increase to no limit. And this is the statement of Ibn Batil.

The questioner : But we are talking about the decrease.

The Shaykh : How?

The questioner : We are talking about the decrease, O Shaykh, in faith. It is not permissible.

The Shaykh : The decrease, my brother, that which increases decreases. But the decrease has limits. For example, how strong is this light? Suppose it is sixty. Now shine lights here, it becomes six hundred, six thousand, six million, and so on. But this which increased does not accept decrease? Tell me, why do you not speak?

The questioner : A confusing example. You shine lights on it other than this light. The original light itself does not decrease.

The Shaykh : Listen, you have a second light. The light in the room increased and increased and increased, and so on. Turn off this light. The light that was shining in this room decreased, like faith that shines in the heart. What was increased decreased. But this decrease must reach a limit. If it decreases from it, then the name of faith is gone. That is, faith accepts increase and accepts decrease, but the decrease has limits. As for the increase, it has no limits. Be patient a little.

The questioner : This faith, I am talking about the foundation of faith that Ibn Batil talks about.

The Shaykh : Does the foundation of faith increase or not?

The questioner : It increases.

The Shaykh : Good. Does this increase decrease?

The questioner : This is what I want to understand from you.

The Shaykh : This is what I explained to you, my brother. What you are saying is that the foundation of faith is what I say: if it decreases, it exits from being faith. But this faith that increases accepts decrease. But its decrease has limits. As for the increase, it has no limits. Is that clear?

The questioner : May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh : May Allah reward me with good, whether I was right or wrong. Is it clear or not clear?

The questioner : May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh : It is not clear.
Al-Halabi : I am speaking about it, O my Shaykh. It is clear, if Allah wills. Out of good opinion of my brother. O my Shaykh, the reality is that even the words of Ibn Batil contain a reference to the thing you mentioned, by his saying that the foundation of faith is a speck of dust. So if this speck of dust decreases, there is no faith. So when he says that the foundation of faith does not vary, what he means is the amount of the speck of dust, because it truly cannot decrease. O my Shaykh, if this speck of dust decreases, then at that time there is no faith.

The questioner : This is in the deeds, my brother. So whoever’s deed is such, his increase does not speak about faith increasing by obedience and decreasing by disobedience. He stops at the word "foundation of faith."

The Shaykh : Who is it, my brother?

The questioner : When this young man spoke with you.

The Shaykh : The foundation of faith. Now I am talking to you. Does the foundation of faith accept increase or not?

The questioner : It accepts increase without limits.

The Shaykh : This is what we are telling you.

The questioner : But Ibn Batil says it does not accept decrease. The foundation of faith does not accept decrease.

The Shaykh : How is the statement you read contrary to this?

The questioner : Disobedience makes a black spot in the heart, and the good deed erases the bad deed.

The questioner : This is in the deeds, O Shaykh.

Another questioner : If he persists in sins, the heart becomes black, meaning the faith decreased.

The Shaykh : Yes, faith decreases. In any case, what interests you now from the words of Ibn Batil? I am not concerned. We are talking specifically about the young man. But you moved from the young man to the previous Shaykh. I say now, as we said earlier with the brother Amjad, what do we want with al-Balkhi? What do we want with him? Remember the previous research. Now what do we want with Ibn Batil? Suppose Ibn Batil is now talking about faith and not about the deed, which is the fruit of faith. Like this or like that, what is important in the subject? What is important in the subject is the words of that man that night, right? Good, let us close the book now and not discuss the words of Ibn Batil: does he mean faith itself or does he mean its deed and its fruit? Let us talk. So, as you understood, faith increases and decreases, right? Faith, not the deeds.

The questioner : Yes.

The Shaykh : Are you affirming agreement or what?

The questioner : Faith increases and decreases.

The Shaykh : Did you agree with that man’s words?

The questioner : He distinguished between the foundation of faith and the deed, which is the fruit of faith.

The Shaykh : No, you are contradicting yourself now. Because when you want to say he distinguished between the foundation of faith and then the deed, it is not said "foundation" if we say "foundation and branch." The foundation of faith that we understood earlier is this speck of dust, then it grows and grows and branches from it. So this foundation is like the root of a tree; it branches and grows and becomes, what may Allah will, a skyscraper. But the foundation of faith does not accept increase. But it has its fruit, the righteous deeds. This is a second subject. So now, you and I are understanding each other, then we return to the man. Does the foundation of faith increase for you or not?

The questioner : The foundation of faith increases.

The Shaykh : Good. Does it decrease?

The questioner : The foundation.

The Shaykh : And what am I talking about?

The questioner : It does not decrease.

The Shaykh : My brother, that which increases decreases.

The questioner : Because of the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) ... .

The Shaykh : Before you say "because," let us agree on the claim, then we justify it. So your saying "because" is a justification for which sentence? We have not agreed yet. You have not agreed with me that faith increases. And I gave you an example earlier: this room has these lights. Now, did the light increase or not?

The questioner : The light increased.

The Shaykh : Now?

The questioner : It decreased.

The Shaykh : Do you think that which increases does not decrease?

The questioner : You are dreaming, O Shaykh. We are talking about the foundation.

The Shaykh : And how do you see me?

The questioner : O Shaykh, we say this foundation. You increase it as much as you want. The foundation is fixed. Do you know? If it decreases, if you turn off this light, all the faith is gone.

The Shaykh : Yes, by Allah.

The questioner : The meaning of this, what I want to understand from you, is whether the statement of Ibn Batil is possible.

The Shaykh : What do you want from the statement of Ibn Batil? Did not Allah say? Did not the Messenger of Allah say? Therefore, I do not want to bind you to humans. Ibn Batil, whatever he intended, either right or wrong, right? Good, now you and I, I want to understand. You say faith increases. The foundation of faith increases, not the deed, right? Good. Does this which increased not decrease? Do you not read the creed of the Salaf that the increase of faith is by righteous deed and its decrease is the opposite? So if a person, whenever he does a righteous deed, his faith increases. So if he decreases from the deed, what happens to this faith? Does it not decrease?

The questioner : It decreases.

The Shaykh : So how do you say it does not decrease? You remind me of a joke to liven up the atmosphere, or do not tell me to take you in your dream.

The questioner : No, perhaps you did not understand me. I am not talking about what I have.

The Shaykh : Until now you have not understood me?! I am asking you about what you have. May Allah guide you.

The questioner : I have that faith increases and decreases. It increases by obedience and decreases by disobedience. But I am talking about something, O Shaykh. I asked you about the statement of Ibn Batil.

The Shaykh : And I told you to leave us from Ibn Batil.

The questioner : Now I understood. You told me to leave you from Ibn Batil because I wanted to connect it to the subject of this young man.

The Shaykh : Why don't you say, as I have been saying from the beginning, that Ibn Batal's book came to you and went back to you, and we told you, "We have no opinion on this, my brother"? You gave us the example of al-Balkhi. Is it permissible for Ibn Batat to narrate an error? Why do we discuss it? Is it permissible for him to narrate a correct statement? Why do we discuss it? Let us understand each other, you and I. If you believe that faith increases and also decreases, then I understood you incorrectly when you said it increases but does not decrease.

The questioner : Because he distinguished between the root and the branch.

The Shaykh : My brother, did we disbelieve in Ibn Batat? May Allah guide you. Did we disbelieve in Ibn Batat?

The questioner : No, we did not disbelieve in him.

The Shaykh : Okay, let's finish with him. You are still telling me that I want you and me to say that faith increases.

The questioner : It increases with obedience and decreases with disobedience.

The Shaykh : So why is there a disagreement?

The questioner : It is not a disagreement between you and me; it is a disagreement... No, no, it is between us and Ibn Batat. Some people enter this issue from this angle.

The Shaykh : What angle?

The questioner : The root of faith and the fruit of faith, which is action. They take these statements as evidence.

The Shaykh : Is this correct evidence?

The questioner : As for me, the matters are fixed, praise be to Allah, and clear.

The Shaykh : Now I am done with you, but you are speaking about others. I am asking you: Is this evidence correct?

The questioner : No, it is not correct.

The Shaykh : So why are you concerned with it?

The questioner : Because I want to record your voice on...

The Shaykh : My voice and your voice are recorded. We want to record something from which people will benefit. I am in a hurry. Do you understand? I understood from you that faith increases and does not decrease. So what about the others? Why do you make us understand something different from what is in your heart?

The questioner : I make you understand something different from what is in my heart? I seek forgiveness from Allah.

The Shaykh : Look, ask whomever you want. Did I understand from you incorrectly or correctly? I understood from you that faith increases and does not decrease. Look at the other group.

The questioner : That it increases and does not decrease.

The Shaykh : And you are on this view?

The questioner : In my view, it increases and decreases. It increases with obedience and decreases with disobedience.

The Shaykh : How did they understand from you that it increases and does not decrease, and now you say, "In my view, it increases and decreases"?

The questioner : I am speaking about the statement of some scholars of knowledge, until...

The Shaykh : No, I excuse you now, but you are taking me for a ride.

The questioner : I understood that the root of faith, according to our brother, does not accept decrease.

The Shaykh : That is how we understood it from him from the beginning. But now he says it accepts increase.

The questioner : It accepts increase, O Shaykh. I started from the beginning. You did not want to speak about the statements of the scholars of knowledge. When you entered the creed of the people of the Sunnah and the community in a general way, we said, "We did not say that faith increases with obedience and decreases with disobedience," and we stopped at this...