The Shaykh’s condemnation of charitable organizations for their dealings with interest-based banks

The Shaykh : These Muslims, including these brothers of ours whom we used to look up to as they progressed in this deep path, have now started issuing fatwas permitting small riba, the permissibility of dealing with banks, and working in banks, and so on.
The student : They said "small riba," which has nothing to do with riba.

The Shaykh : Now, specifically regarding 'Abd al-Rahman and the issue of small riba, as for working in and dealing with banks, all their associations are based on dealing with banks. All charitable associations are like this, and this is one of the problems with charitable associations. A few days ago, three of them were here, and Abu Malik was also sitting here. We spoke with them about this matter, telling the charitable associations not to occupy themselves with this. You, students of knowledge, should occupy yourselves with what Allah created you for, which is knowledge. The charitable associations have people who are not there in terms of knowledge and do not have the inclination to seek knowledge. Collecting and distributing money is an easy matter that does not require such dedication from students of knowledge, whereas the scientific aspect... Most Muslims... And we said that among the harms of these associations is that, first, from the perspective of government regulations, it is not possible to collect money and put it in a private fund; it must be placed in a bank.
The student : Yes, but I don't know if they were placing some of it as deposits or trusts.

The Shaykh : A trust fund. We said, "We are refuting this claim," Abu Malik, and there was one of the Kuwaitis you mentioned, a student of 'Abd al-Rahman 'Abd al-Khaliq, named Ramez, who studies economics.
The student : Good.

The Shaykh : He said, "These banks do not accept this type of transaction." He confirms what we know and what you know, which is that there is a trust fund. We always find this outlet for large merchants. But the truth is, we refuted it, and I had no choice but to admit that the merchant rents a box from the bank instead of taking what is called interest and riba; he pays what? A rental fee. That was the outlet. But we refuted this from a practical standpoint. He said the banks do not accept placing the funds of charitable associations in such boxes because charitable associations need to withdraw their funds every period. The bank is not prepared to assign an employee to every box whenever a request comes in. "Take what you want. This is not a trust fund. Every few months, for example, it occurs to him to withdraw something, he goes back, sends an employee with a key from the bank side and a key from the trustee side, and so on. Is this a tractor rope? Whose talk is this?"
The student : The economist's.

The Shaykh : The economist, his name is Ramez. And indeed, banks were not established except on the basis of exploiting time and investing funds, and so on. Therefore, any charitable association that is established must inevitably get involved in dealing with riba. For this reason, we emphasized to the students of knowledge not to occupy themselves with collecting money, even if it is for the sake of spending it on good, because it is established in violation of the Shari'ah and in committing the curse that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) mentioned: . The important thing is that the jihad that took place in Afghanistan is based on interest-based funds, O Shaykh.
The student : Therefore, it was not blessed.

The Shaykh: Allah is the Greatest!
The student : .

The Shaykh : I say that a state cannot be established for the Muslims because what is built on a defective foundation is defective. But the poor, humble, poor, and destitute Arab people whom Allah supported due to their adherence to their religion, there is no doubt that history repeats itself.
The student : .

The Shaykh : This is it. This is what we see from the painful reality now, which is contrary to the Shari'ah, regarding the permissibility... The jihad in Bosnia and Herzegovina; the funds that reach them from Saudi Arabia and elsewhere are all from Al-Rajhi. Do you hear about it?
The student : Yes, the large exchange house.

The Shaykh : We used to think in the past that this man was a Shaykh, a scholar of religion. I mean, regarding civilization, and so on. And they were still fanatical about their religion. Nothing of this remains at all.
The student : What do you mean?

The Shaykh : I was informed a few months ago that Mustafa al-Zarqa, whom you know, is an employee at Al-Rajhi to issue fatwas to legitimize interest-based transactions for them. He has a salary as an employee here, retired from teaching at the university. They just ask him to issue fatwas for them and process their transactions.
The student : But this is according to the Hanafi school; they are Hanbalis.

The Shaykh : There is no longer a Hanbali or Hanafi school now; it is just interest. And then, we know that Al-Rajhi is a millionaire.
The student : Yes, a billionaire.

The Shaykh : His funds are all in foreign banks. Where else would he put them? All in foreign banks. And he thinks that... Islamic rulings. Then, the Shaykhs themselves, I think, and Allah knows best, because I am not sure, Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaymeen permit dealing with banks.
The student : They permit them?

The Shaykh : Yes, I read this. I remember an article, perhaps by Ibn Uthaymeen or by Ibn Baz; I don't remember well. They find an excuse for the Saudi state that allowed the banks. I was recently informed, I don't know, I don't know if this news is true or not? The banks now surround the Sacred Mosque. The last thing I read to legitimize the Saudi state's allowance of these banks that deal with riba is that there are scholars issuing fatwas for them. Thus, the ruler has an excuse if he adopts one of these jurisprudential opinions, so it is not permissible to condemn him, even though we see that this is an abomination.
The student : Yes, a Satanic entry point.

The Shaykh: Yes.
The student : A Satanic entry point. This means, glory be to Allah, it means he is not condemned with the tongue. This is a mistake. But if he is not condemned with the teeth, then in the time of al-Ma'mun, when he was tried with the Mu'tazilah, it would not be permissible to condemn Mu'tazilism.

The Shaykh: Peace be upon you.
The student: And upon you peace.

The Shaykh : There is.
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : You turned it off.
The student: No.

The Shaykh : Come on, turn it off.
The student: All right.
Another student: What is this pullover?

The Shaykh : It is the heating device.
The student : There is a device here. We put it here now. Allah... Yes. I say that Saudi Arabia, the existence of banks there is old and strange. I mean, even though at that time there was adherence, so silence about it is strange. For example, during your stay at the Islamic University, were there no banks? I remember in 1966 there were banks.

The Shaykh : That is it, of course.
The student : This is haram, is it not haram?

The Shaykh : No, the topic was not raised because the apparent understanding in people's minds was that this is known to be dealing with riba, and only those with no worth, no religion, and so on, deal with it. But now the calamity has spread and become widespread due to these fatwas that permit small riba, and necessities have their own rulings.