The Shaykh’s discussion with a man who denies that the Torah and the Gospel are the word of Allah
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The Shaykh : Regarding the Jews, perhaps you have a mushaf in front of you.
The student : ... a little, yes, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : In Surat al-Ma'idah, verse forty-two, what do you read?
The student : I seek refuge in Allah from the accursed Shaytan[Al-Ma'idah 5:42].
The Shaykh : Complete it.
The student :[Al-Ma'idah 5:43] .
The Shaykh : And then?
The student :[Al-Ma'idah 5:44] .
The Shaykh : Is there not in this verse evidence for what you want?
The student : That the Torah and the Gospel are the word of Allah?
The Shaykh : Yes, let us address the verse, and I hope you are like us, a seeker of the truth, if Allah wills.
The student : If Allah wills.
The Shaykh : When He, the Exalted, said:[Al-Ma'idah 5:43] If the Torah, as some people might imagine, is not the word of Allah, how can the completion of the verse be valid: [Al-Ma'idah 5:43].
The student : How can it contain the ruling of Allah if it is not the word of Allah?
The Shaykh : Yes, does this make sense?
The student : Yes, this can make sense, as in the hadith; the hadith contains the ruling of Allah in some matters, but it is not the word of Allah.
The Shaykh : But what are you talking about, may Allah bless you, about the Torah; is it the hadith of Musa, may Allah guide you?
The student : Yes, regarding the Torah, we do not know if it is the word of Allah or the word of Musa.
The Shaykh : So if the ruling of Allah is mentioned in it, it means it contains the hadith of Musa.
The student : The Prophetic hadiths contain the ruling of Allah.
The Shaykh : Answer, answer the question, may Allah guide you, or else you will force me to not waste my time. I am standing with you before this verse; what comes to mind for one who reads this verse:[Al-Ma'idah 5:43] meaning the Torah which contains the word of Musa, this is what the Arab and the Muslim understand? This is one point. [Al-Ma'idah 5:43-44] Do they judge by the word of Musa? Then its completion: [Al-Ma'idah 5:44] The prophets judge by it. So Musa is a prophet and a messenger, and Allah revealed to him the Torah, which contains the ruling of Allah, and the prophets who submitted to Allah judge by it for those who became Jews, to the end of the verse. So if the reader and reciter of this verse were to be unbiased, they could not understand any meaning other than that the Torah contains the word of Allah, not the word of Musa. Then I want to understand something: do you know of a disagreement among Muslims that the Torah and the Gospel are from the word of Allah?
The student : By Allah, I do not know what the stronger opinion is, and for this reason I am exhausted.
The Shaykh : You have deviated from the answer, may Allah forgive you, may Allah forgive you, you have deviated from the answer.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : How? Yes, do you admit that you deviated? Yes.
The student : What is the question, if you please?
The Shaykh : May Allah forgive you once again. I am telling you, do you not believe that all Muslims, the later generations following the Salaf, are in agreement on what is between them, despite their disagreement in some of the fundamentals, let alone the branches? Do you know if there is a disagreement among them regarding whether the Torah and the Gospel are from the word of Allah or from the word of other than Allah, as you want to say? Do you know of a disagreement?
The student : I do not know of a disagreement among them because I do not know their opinion.
The Shaykh : So what is your duty from the Islamic perspective if you do not know what is agreed upon among Muslims and what is disputed among them? What is your duty as a Muslim?
The student : It is obligatory for me to research.
The Shaykh : But you cannot research because you are not a scholar. And if you could research, you would not have stood before this verse and raised the objection that does not even occur to the mind of the disbelieving Arab, the disbelieving Arab, the Arab who understands the Arabic language; it does not occur to him to understand[Al-Ma'idah 5:43] meaning the ruling of Musa. What is this?
The student : I seek refuge in Allah. We do not say it is the ruling of Musa, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : Shaykh, may Allah guide you. The ruling of Musa means the word of Musa, his opinion, his ijtihad, because you compared it to the word of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). So I also want to draw your attention with a question: do you consider yourself to be among the people of knowledge of the Arabic language first? And I felt that you are reading from the Book of Allah, the mushaf, which should not be, meaning one should not make mistakes in reading it, a young man who has graduated from primary school, because the verse is difficult. Nevertheless, do you believe that you are knowledgeable about the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah, what is authentic of it and what is not, and about the statements of the scholars and their schools of jurisprudence, what they agreed upon and what they disagreed upon? This is a detailed question, the summary of which is: do you believe, may Allah bless you, that you are a knowledgeable man?
The student : No... a scholar.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you with good. I like this frankness from you. And in that case, how do you understand the saying of Allah, Mighty and Majestic:[An-Nahl 16:43].
The student : Ask the people of knowledge.
The Shaykh : Fine, ask whom you wish from the people of knowledge among the Muslims: are the Torah and the Gospel from the word of Allah, Mighty and Majestic, like the Qur'an? You will hear the answer that you heard recently. If you mean that which Allah revealed to the heart of Musa and to the heart of 'Isa, then they are, without doubt, from the word of Allah. And if you mean the Torah and the Gospel that are in the hands of people today, then we said, and I think you know this fact, that they are two books that have been altered, changed, and distorted, and so on. So if you ask the scholars and they tell you: the Torah and the Gospel that Allah revealed to Musa and 'Isa are, without doubt or hesitation, from the word of Allah, then your duty, may Allah bless you, is not to wade into a swamp that you are not capable of wading into. Then there is something else, which is that there are many, and very many, hadiths that explicitly state what this verse states. So for example, have you ever heard the saying of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his family):Jami` at-Tirmidhi 3125Sahih (Darussalam)? Does not this hadith give you the answer to your question, may Allah bless you?
The student : Allah did not reveal in the Torah.
The Shaykh : Nor in the Gospel like the Mother of the Qur'an.
The student : But Shaykh, this hadith is understood to mean something else.
The Shaykh : Shaykh, may Allah guide you. Who understands, the one who understands or the one who does not? Now, if you presented the Qur'an to some of the deviant sects from the Qur'an and the Sunnah,, what do they understand by prayer?
The student : Prayer.
The Shaykh : No, if you do not know, then know. Many of the sects that deviated from Islam, in the past and in the present, interpret prayer here as supplication. And also, what do you understand by zakah?
The student : Zakah is paying money.
The Shaykh : Ah, but there are people... like you who say there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and Allah knows what is in their hearts, they say: zakah is not the zakah you call it, but rather it is the purification of the hearts and the cleansing of them from bad morals, and so on, their philosophy. And therefore, may Allah bless you, this is a long and very long discussion.
The student : ... a little, yes, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : In Surat al-Ma'idah, verse forty-two, what do you read?
The student : I seek refuge in Allah from the accursed Shaytan
[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ أَكَّالُونَ لِلسُّحْتِ فَإِنْ جَاءُوكَ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ أَوْ أَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَإِنْ تُعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ فَلَنْ يَضُرُّوكَ شيئًا وَإِنْ حَكَمْتَ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِالْقِسْطِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَThe Shaykh : Complete it.
The student :
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.
وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِنْدَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِنْ بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُولَئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَThe Shaykh : And then?
The student :
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُوا وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالْأَحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِنْ كِتَابِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَاءَ فَلَا تَخْشَوُا النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلَا تَشْتَرُوا بِآيَاتِي ثَمَنًا قليلًا وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَThe Shaykh : Is there not in this verse evidence for what you want?
The student : That the Torah and the Gospel are the word of Allah?
The Shaykh : Yes, let us address the verse, and I hope you are like us, a seeker of the truth, if Allah wills.
The student : If Allah wills.
The Shaykh : When He, the Exalted, said:
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah
وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِنْدَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِin which is the judgement of Allah
فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِThe student : How can it contain the ruling of Allah if it is not the word of Allah?
The Shaykh : Yes, does this make sense?
The student : Yes, this can make sense, as in the hadith; the hadith contains the ruling of Allah in some matters, but it is not the word of Allah.
The Shaykh : But what are you talking about, may Allah bless you, about the Torah; is it the hadith of Musa, may Allah guide you?
The student : Yes, regarding the Torah, we do not know if it is the word of Allah or the word of Musa.
The Shaykh : So if the ruling of Allah is mentioned in it, it means it contains the hadith of Musa.
The student : The Prophetic hadiths contain the ruling of Allah.
The Shaykh : Answer, answer the question, may Allah guide you, or else you will force me to not waste my time. I am standing with you before this verse; what comes to mind for one who reads this verse:
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah
وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِنْدَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِThen they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers. (44) Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets
ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِنْ بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُولَئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ * إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَwho submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews
الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذِينَ هَادُواThe student : By Allah, I do not know what the stronger opinion is, and for this reason I am exhausted.
The Shaykh : You have deviated from the answer, may Allah forgive you, may Allah forgive you, you have deviated from the answer.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : How? Yes, do you admit that you deviated? Yes.
The student : What is the question, if you please?
The Shaykh : May Allah forgive you once again. I am telling you, do you not believe that all Muslims, the later generations following the Salaf, are in agreement on what is between them, despite their disagreement in some of the fundamentals, let alone the branches? Do you know if there is a disagreement among them regarding whether the Torah and the Gospel are from the word of Allah or from the word of other than Allah, as you want to say? Do you know of a disagreement?
The student : I do not know of a disagreement among them because I do not know their opinion.
The Shaykh : So what is your duty from the Islamic perspective if you do not know what is agreed upon among Muslims and what is disputed among them? What is your duty as a Muslim?
The student : It is obligatory for me to research.
The Shaykh : But you cannot research because you are not a scholar. And if you could research, you would not have stood before this verse and raised the objection that does not even occur to the mind of the disbelieving Arab, the disbelieving Arab, the Arab who understands the Arabic language; it does not occur to him to understand
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah
وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِنْدَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِThe student : I seek refuge in Allah. We do not say it is the ruling of Musa, Shaykh.
The Shaykh : Shaykh, may Allah guide you. The ruling of Musa means the word of Musa, his opinion, his ijtihad, because you compared it to the word of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). So I also want to draw your attention with a question: do you consider yourself to be among the people of knowledge of the Arabic language first? And I felt that you are reading from the Book of Allah, the mushaf, which should not be, meaning one should not make mistakes in reading it, a young man who has graduated from primary school, because the verse is difficult. Nevertheless, do you believe that you are knowledgeable about the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah, what is authentic of it and what is not, and about the statements of the scholars and their schools of jurisprudence, what they agreed upon and what they disagreed upon? This is a detailed question, the summary of which is: do you believe, may Allah bless you, that you are a knowledgeable man?
The student : No... a scholar.
The Shaykh : May Allah reward you with good. I like this frankness from you. And in that case, how do you understand the saying of Allah, Mighty and Majestic:
So ask the people of the message if you do not know.
فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَThe student : Ask the people of knowledge.
The Shaykh : Fine, ask whom you wish from the people of knowledge among the Muslims: are the Torah and the Gospel from the word of Allah, Mighty and Majestic, like the Qur'an? You will hear the answer that you heard recently. If you mean that which Allah revealed to the heart of Musa and to the heart of 'Isa, then they are, without doubt, from the word of Allah. And if you mean the Torah and the Gospel that are in the hands of people today, then we said, and I think you know this fact, that they are two books that have been altered, changed, and distorted, and so on. So if you ask the scholars and they tell you: the Torah and the Gospel that Allah revealed to Musa and 'Isa are, without doubt or hesitation, from the word of Allah, then your duty, may Allah bless you, is not to wade into a swamp that you are not capable of wading into. Then there is something else, which is that there are many, and very many, hadiths that explicitly state what this verse states. So for example, have you ever heard the saying of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his family):
Allah has not revealed the likes of Umm Al-Kitab in the Tawrah, nor the Injil.
ما أنزل الله في التوراة ولا في الإنجيل مثل أمِّ القرآنThe student : Allah did not reveal in the Torah.
The Shaykh : Nor in the Gospel like the Mother of the Qur'an.
The student : But Shaykh, this hadith is understood to mean something else.
The Shaykh : Shaykh, may Allah guide you. Who understands, the one who understands or the one who does not? Now, if you presented the Qur'an to some of the deviant sects from the Qur'an and the Sunnah,
And establish the prayer.
وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَThe student : Prayer.
The Shaykh : No, if you do not know, then know. Many of the sects that deviated from Islam, in the past and in the present, interpret prayer here as supplication. And also
And give the zakah.
وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَThe student : Zakah is paying money.
The Shaykh : Ah, but there are people... like you who say there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and Allah knows what is in their hearts, they say: zakah is not the zakah you call it, but rather it is the purification of the hearts and the cleansing of them from bad morals, and so on, their philosophy. And therefore, may Allah bless you, this is a long and very long discussion.
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.