The Refutation of the Mu'tazilah in Their Claim That There Is No Physical Scale

The Shaykh : What is customary and known to us, or to those being addressed, from the revelation of the Qur'an to this day, is that the scale is physical, that there is a heavier side and a lighter side, and that the heavier side is the one with more weight.
Yes, for example, if the sins are placed in one pan and the good deeds in the other, if the good deeds are more, the pan of the good deeds goes down, does it not? Or does it go up? It goes down; that is what is known. All right.
A group differed on this:
First: The Mu'tazilah said that there is no physical scale, and there is no need for a physical scale, because Allah the Exalted has known the deeds of the servants and counted them.
But what is meant by the scale is the conceptual scale, which is justice, so justice appears there without a beam with two pans, a scale with two pans, but rather what is meant is justice.
And this is a branch of what Ibn al-Qayyim called the taghut, which is metaphorical interpretation; this is a branch of metaphorical interpretation, or the claim of metaphorical interpretation, because they say in such cases: it is a metaphor for such-and-such, so the scales are a metaphor for justice. All right, how do we say it is a metaphor for justice when it is explicit?
And there is no doubt that the statement of the Mu'tazilah is invalid, because it contradicts the apparent meaning of the text and the consensus of the Salaf.
And because if we say that what is meant by the scale is justice, there is no need for us to speak of the scale, but rather we speak of justice, because even justice is more pleasing to the soul than the word "scale," since the scale may exist without justice existing, is it not? How many are those who cheat in measures and scales! But when justice is mentioned, it becomes more pleasing to souls and more apparent. For this reason, Allah the Exalted said: So their statement is without doubt invalid, and contrary to the truth, contrary to the apparent meaning of the text and the consensus of the Salaf on this.
All right, there are those who see that the heavier side is the higher one, the higher one, meaning they say: if the good deeds are placed in one pan and the sins in the other, the one that rises is the heavier one. And this is contrary to what is customary, this is contrary to what is customary. And their saying that it is because elevation occurs in it, we say: but deficiency occurs in it, because it does not rise unless it is deficient, and at that time it is obligatory for us to take the matter by its apparent meaning. And we say: the heavier one is the one that goes down.
And the hadith of the man with the card indicates this, for in it the records fly, they rise, and this is clear that the heavier side is by going down. Yes.
The student: In the Qur'an, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student: .

The Shaykh : What contradicts it says it becomes heavy but rises. Yes, all right.
The student: ... .

The Shaykh : Ah.
The student: Do I put in a break for questions or not?

The Shaykh : By Allah.
The student: the seven.

The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.
The student: Is this correct or not?

The Shaykh : If it comes in the hadith it is not impossible, and this is far-fetched, but the 'Arsh is used in the Arabic language for what is broader than that, and from it is the shelter of the palm trees, the shelter of the grapes, and the like of that; the 'Arsh may mean shade. Yes, all right.
The student: Shaykh. It was reported that retribution is taken even from animals, some from others...

The Shaykh : Yes. Yes, all right.
All right, the author (may Allah have mercy on him) means he omitted the mention of animals, because he wants to establish what benefits the human being, and otherwise there is no doubt that the beasts will be gathered, indeed every living creature will be gathered . Everything will be gathered, and gathered with the people, and gathered with the people.
All right, so we argue from, we argue.
The student: ... you said they are gathered with the people.

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student: O Shaykh, regarding the Reckoning, are they not reckoned?

The Shaykh : No, they are reckoned; retribution is taken, retribution is taken from the hornless sheep from the horned sheep, and then after that Allah commands it and it becomes dust.
The student: O Shaykh, are they accountable in this world so that retribution is taken for them in the Hereafter?

The Shaykh : Huh? Justice is established between them, but as for us, we are punished for it, we are punished for it. And I do not know if they are punished for us or not? This is best known to Allah.
The student: O Shaykh, we know the distinction between lawful and forbidden in this world by the evidence that a person... that he knows that he may have done something forbidden. But...

The Shaykh : This is retribution to manifest justice, because the sheep, for example, the one that has a horn, if it butts the one that does not have a horn, that one suffers pain, and for this reason when it sees it afterwards it runs away from it.
The student: But...

The Shaykh : So Allah Mighty and Majestic, for the perfection of His justice, judges between them.
The student: Do they perceive it, O Shaykh...?

The Shaykh : They perceive it and they do not perceive it; believe in what came in the text and leave it. I told you such matters are not permissible for us to speculate about. When the Messenger saw two sheep butting each other, he said to one of the Companions with him: . Yes, all right. All right. We say: so the scales are set up. We have finished with the word "scales," the plural, combining it with "scale" by the singular word.