Discussion on the issue of excusing ignorance and the statements of Shaykh Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaymeen regarding it?

The Shaykh : Regarding Shawqi.
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : Who is he?
The student : I only heard the name and did not know...

The Shaykh : Yes.
The student : Then, after that, there is the group of al-Tawquf wa al-Tabyin (suspension and clarification), and then another group that believes in the book *Aqeedat al-Muwahhidin* (The Creed of the Monotheists), a book published in Riyadh. This is based on the doctrine of the Mu'tazilah, which divides religion into a root and a branch. Whoever is ignorant of the root is a disbeliever, a disbeliever in Allah (Mighty and Majestic). And as you know, the worship of shrines in Egypt is widespread in a very strange way.

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.
The student : There is hardly a village without a shrine.

The Shaykh: Correct.
The student : Or an idol, so these people rule that those people are disbelievers, declaring every person there a disbeliever who thought that this worship was permissible.

The Shaykh: Allahu Akbar.
The student : Yes, and unfortunately, our Shaykh, thatThe Shaykh : Ibn Baz (may Allah bless him and reward him with good) has a fatwa stating that ignorance is not an excuse.

The Shaykh : What does he have a fatwa stating that ignorance is not an excuse for?
The student : That ignorance is not an excuse in the root of tawhid (the oneness of Allah).

The Shaykh : Absolutely, without exception.
The student : Absolutely, our Shaykh. And he also has a fatwa that details this, and Ibn Uthaymeen also has a fatwa that details this. But there remains the point that he says, "No, Ibn Baz's fatwa is higher, and so on and so on." They say it is the later one and the abrogating one. Ibn Baz says, "This is it: ignorance is not an excuse in *La ilaha illa Allah* (There is no god but Allah)." Of course, as is well known, this division into root and branch is a Mu'tazili division.

The Shaykh : Yes, exactly.
The student : Yes, this is the belief of many groups. Then the issue of establishing the proof, our Shaykh. We say we must be aware, and if one is not aware, he is a disbeliever. And he says, "Any person who establishes the proof."

The Shaykh: Allahu Akbar.
The student : So these are the issues.

The Shaykh : Fine, what is the detail you referred to?
The student : Regarding the issue of takfir (declaring someone a disbeliever).

The Shaykh : Regarding Ibn Uthaymeen.
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : First, and regarding Ibn Baz in his other fatwa, secondly.
The student: Yes.

The Shaykh : What is the detail?
The student : Regarding the detail of Ibn Uthaymeen, first, he says in his *Majmu' al-Fatawa* (Collection of Fatwas): "There is no declaration of open sinfulness or takfir until the proof is established." This is what we have learned, so this is a very good thing. We do not descend to this level of speech, saying, "This is a sick fatwa" or "This is such a fatwa" or "We do not accept this fatwa either..." Ibn Baz says, "The proof is not established, and there is the conveyance," and he argues with the well-known verses...

The Shaykh : That is his first fatwa. But we are asking you about the other one. What is it?
The student : Yes, my Shaykh, the second one, the one in which he details it.

The Shaykh : Ah, what does he say?
The student : He says, "We must first clarify things to the people and not rule against them."

The Shaykh: All right.
The student : We clarify things to the people first, and then we rule against them afterwards. This is what he details to some extent.

The Shaykh : Allah is the Helper.
The student: Amen.

The Shaykh : Allah is the Helper.
The student : ... also in the issue where they argue in the matter of takfir that the consensus of the Muslims, or those who also said that ignorance is not an excuse, are more numerous than those who did not say so, more numerous than those who excused ignorance.
Another student: Peace be upon you.

The Shaykh : And upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.
The student: Peace be upon you.

The Shaykh : And upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.