He says in his letter: We have some merchants who extend credit for a year. For example, a merchant might have one hundred or two hundred pieces of cardamom in his shop, and the one who
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The questioner : He says in his letter: We have some merchants who extend credit for a year. For example, a merchant might have one hundred or two hundred pieces of cardamom in his shop, and the one who wants to borrow from him from these pieces of cardamom says to the merchant: Take from him, for example, ten or twenty, according to what he borrowed, and the debtor takes possession of them. Then another person comes to borrow, and the merchant lends them to him a second time, while they are in their place and have not been moved, and he lends them to several people. Is this permissible, that he lends them to several people while they are in their place? Is there anything of riba in this?
The Shaykh : Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds, and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad, and upon his family, his Companions, and those who follow them with excellence until the Day of Judgment.
The questioner : O Allah, send blessings and peace upon the Messenger of Allah.
The Shaykh : This issue mentioned by the questioner is one in which many Muslims have been afflicted, unfortunately, and it is in reality distressing and sorrowful, but it is a confirmation of the saying of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)Mishkat al-Masabih 5408 They said: O Messenger of Allah, the Jews and the Christians? He said: This issue is one of the stratagems that the Jews used to commit, or less, or more, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade us to do like their actions of these stratagems.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : It is known that if a man gives a person ten thousand riyals in cash, he hands them to him in paper.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And he said: These ten are for twelve thousand over a year. It is known to everyone that this is riba.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And that it is forbidden, and that the one who deals in riba faces the threats and punishment that are known to all Muslims. So Allah the Exalted says regarding those who deal in riba:[Al-Baqarah 2:279] And the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) Sunan Ibn Majah 2277Hasan (Darussalam) And he said: The hadith is in Muslim, and there are many hadiths indicating the severity of this act, the act of riba, and that it is among the major sins. So if it is known that what we described previously of riba is explicit, then circumventing this by any type of stratagem is considered falling into it, because a stratagem against the forbidden does not make it permissible.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Rather, it increases its ugliness to its ugliness, because the stratagem—yes—because a stratagem against the forbidden combines two prohibited matters: one is falling into the forbidden, and the second is deceiving Allah and His Messenger.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And we give an example of something greater than that, which is disbelief. The explicit disbeliever who declares his disbelief is one who has fallen into disbelief and has committed this great sin, but the hypocrite who displays Islam and appears as a righteous man while concealing disbelief is more sinful and greater. For this reason, Allah placed the hypocrites in the lowest depth of the Fire, below the disbelievers who declare their disbelief. So the one who uses a stratagem against riba is more severe than the one who gives riba explicitly, or more severe than the one who takes riba explicitly, because he combined the two prohibitions: the prohibition of riba and the prohibition of stratagem and deception of the One who knows the treachery of the eyes and what the breasts conceal. And it is established from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that he said:Sahih al-Bukhari 1 And this hadith blocks all types of stratagems for the stratagems-makers. It is said to them: You intended this, so you have what you intended.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh :Sahih al-Bukhari 1 And the practice indicated by the brother questioner is widespread, unfortunately, and it is one of the manifestations of riba that portends destruction and danger for this Ummah. And it is amazing that if there were brothels of zina or intoxicants, all people would denounce them, but there are these riba brothels, and the people are silent. No one denounces them, and no one is disgusted by them, and that is because they have become common. And as it is said: When touch becomes frequent, sensation decreases.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : These bags of cardamom, as the brother said, remain in the merchant's shop for years, perhaps, or months, or weeks, or whatever Allah wills of this.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : The merchant comes to him and buys them from him according to what he agreed with the poor man regarding the profit.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Because he first agrees with the poor man that I will lend you ten for eleven, or fifteen, or more, or less. Then this merchant and this borrower go to the shop owner, and the merchant buys the goods from him at a price they agree upon. Then, with that, immediately in the same session, he sells them to the borrower according to what they agreed upon regarding the profit or the cost-plus sale. Then, after that, the borrower sells them to the shop owner for less than what the shop owner sold them to the merchant for.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Then he takes the money and goes out with it in his pocket. This is the case, the trick and the deception. And the Shaykh al-Islam (may Allah have mercy on him) mentioned this issue and called it the threefold riba transaction. This is the meaning of what he called it, because his exact wording has escaped me now.
The questioner : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh : And with that, he said: This is forbidden without doubt and is riba. And he (may Allah have mercy on him) used to narrate in the issue of tawarruq two opinions from the people of knowledge, then he would choose the prohibition himself. So that indicates that this issue is not the issue of tawarruq that some people use as an excuse, and say: The well-known opinion of the Hanbali school is the permissibility of the issue of tawarruq. We say this: The well-known opinion of the Hanbali school is the permissibility of the issue of tawarruq, but the issue of tawarruq is not with this obvious and clear stratagem. The issue of tawarruq, as the jurists (may Allah have mercy on them) said, is when a person needs cash and buys what is worth one hundred for one hundred and twenty over a term.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And of course, he bought it in the sound and correct way, without the ten for eleven and the ten for fifteen, or anything. I needed, for example, money, so I went to the shop owner and said: Sell me this thing for a year. It is worth one hundred now, I said to him: For one hundred and twenty. And I took it and went and sold it. This is the issue of tawarruq.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : As for this issue, it is not of tawarruq in any way, and it does not apply to tawarruq at all.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : That is because, first, they agree on the cost-plus sale, so the merchant sells to the borrower what he does not own with a profit, and this, although it is not specified, is in his debt.
Second, it involves selling the item before taking possession of it and receiving it.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Third, it involves selling the item before moving it from its place, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade selling goods where they are bought until the merchants take them to their dwellings.
And the fact that some people say: I took possession of it because I counted it. Mere counting is not taking possession, without doubt, and no one says that it is taking possession, because taking possession means that the thing is in your hand and in your control. And what is this counting that you take possession of? What is it from taking possession? But the scholars say: What needs to be counted, it is necessary to count it for its taking possession.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Meaning that its taking possession is not completed except by its counting, and this is a correct matter.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And as for the issue of saying: Mere touching it with one's hand or counting it with a gesture is taking possession. This is not accepted at all.
The questioner : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh : Then, this transaction is in reality not intended, because the merchant does not turn over this cardamom, nor does he ask about its type, nor does he ask about its defect and safety. And perhaps this has spoiled from the length of time, and perhaps the worm has eaten it, and they do not know. Rather, I believe that if the shop owner brought bags of sand and described them and said to the people: This is sugar for those who trade in this way, they would take it as sugar based on their custom that they do not turn over, nor look, nor do anything.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And some trustworthy person narrated to me that he came to borrow from a person, so they went to a shop owner who had goods, but these goods were not worth the amount the borrower wanted. So he said: We will arrange something for it. So the shop owner sold it to the merchant first, then the merchant sold it to the poor man second, then the poor man sold it to the shop owner third, then the shop owner sold it a second time to the merchant, then the merchant to the borrower, until he completed what this borrower wanted.
The questioner : Meaning they traded it more than once.
The Shaykh : They bought and sold it more than once. Its value is what it is worth.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : But they played this circular game until they reached the amount of money this borrower wanted.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And another person told me that they went to a shop owner who had sugar, and the sugar was worth one hundred at its current price. He said: I want so many thousands of dirhams. The owner said: This sugar is not worth half of what you want. He said: Then let us raise its price, meaning we raise its value.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Until it reaches the limit you want. So they raised the price. The price of the bag, instead of one hundred, was raised until the value of this little sugar reached what this borrower wanted.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And all these tricks opened up to people from the ... from the first door that this questioner asked about.
The questioner : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh : So there is no doubt in our minds that this transaction contains, for the one who does it, usury (riba), and it is even greater than those who openly engage in usury, because he deceives Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, and he deceives no one but himself, and he does not realize it.
The questioner : May Allah reward you.
The Shaykh : And he will regret it when his time of death comes.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Ibn al-Qayyim mentioned in his book "The Sufficient Answer for One Who Asks About the Healing Medicine" that a man was on his deathbed, so they were teaching him to say "There is no god but Allah," but he kept saying "ten is eleven, ten is eleven."
The questioner : We seek refuge in Allah.
The Shaykh : Because it had taken possession of his heart, so, may Allah protect us, he was afflicted with it at his death until he forgot the testimony of truth because of it.
The questioner : We seek refuge in Allah.
The Shaykh : So we advise our Muslim brothers to avoid these forbidden transactions that involve deceiving Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, and we tell them that what you have done in this way is more severe than what those who openly engage in usury in banks and elsewhere do.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : For they are lighter in burden than you in this regard, because they commit usury while believing it is usury, and they find shame before Allah (Mighty and Majestic) and humility in their souls, and they hope to renew their repentance. The important thing is that they know they are in the wrong and that they deserve punishment, so you find them repenting to Allah and returning to Him. But these tricksters see that they are on a sound, lawful path, so they remain as they are and hardly ever return from this error and misguidance. We ask Allah for safety for us and for them.
The questioner : Amen.
The Shaykh : Then, as far as we know, the profit taken in banks is less than what these people take from these poor people, and the poor people do not know; they think this method is correct and sound, so they say: It is better for us to do a work in which there is no sin, even if the profit is more for us, than to do a forbidden work. But I tell them that this method is more sinful than the method of the banks.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Because, as we mentioned, it is usury and deception.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : But it remains to be considered that it is part of the correct educational policy followed by the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) that when a door is closed through a forbidden path, a door must be opened for people through a permissible path.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : So that they do not stand confused. We say that in this case, the sound path to that is for a man, if he needs a specific item itself, such as needing a car or building materials or other things, to go to the dealers who sell these tools and these items and buy from them the specific item he wants for a higher price, deferred.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And by this he is safe, he is safe from sin. For example, if he needs cement, he goes to the cement dealers and buys from them what is worth ten thousand for twelve thousand and builds with it, and likewise the other materials like iron and sanitary materials and the like.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And by this he is safe. He might say: I do not want materials or items, I want money for marriage or the like. We say: You have no need for this forbidden transaction. Either you buy the items for marriage in the way we mentioned regarding building materials, or you be patient until Allah makes you rich, because Allah says[An-Nur 24:33] And it is not befitting for a person to borrow in order to marry. So this man who asked the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to marry him to the woman who offered herself to the Prophet, and he had no need for her, said Sunan an-Nasa'i 3359Sahih (Darussalam) So he did not find anything, so he married him with what he had of the Qur'an, and he did not guide him to borrow or take a loan from anyone, but rather he married him with what he had of the Qur'an. So the important thing is that I mean the need for marriage is not a reason for a person to permit for himself this forbidden method for its sake.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.
You have done well. So we tell the listener, Abdul Rahman Abdul Aziz Abdullah Al-Saif from Al-Qassim in Buraydah, that his three questions have been covered in the answer given by His Eminence Shaykh Muhammad al-Salih al-Uthaymeen, which is: the one who sells, for example, a quantity of cardamom while it is in its place to several people, and likewise the second type where the same borrower and debtor go to another shop and buy the item while it is in its place, and the shop owner hands the money to the borrower or the one who gives the cash, and says ten is twelve or fourteen, and so on.
The Shaykh : Very well.
The Shaykh : Praise be to Allah, Lord of the worlds, and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad, and upon his family, his Companions, and those who follow them with excellence until the Day of Judgment.
The questioner : O Allah, send blessings and peace upon the Messenger of Allah.
The Shaykh : This issue mentioned by the questioner is one in which many Muslims have been afflicted, unfortunately, and it is in reality distressing and sorrowful, but it is a confirmation of the saying of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)
you will certainly follow the practices of your predecessors
لتركبن سنن من كان قبلكمWho?
فمن؟The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : It is known that if a man gives a person ten thousand riyals in cash, he hands them to him in paper.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And he said: These ten are for twelve thousand over a year. It is known to everyone that this is riba.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And that it is forbidden, and that the one who deals in riba faces the threats and punishment that are known to all Muslims. So Allah the Exalted says regarding those who deal in riba:
And if you do not, then be informed of a war [against you] from Allah and His Messenger
فإن لم تفعلوا فأذنوا بحرب من الله ورسولهthe Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) cursed the one who consumes usury, the one who pays it, those who witness it and the one who writes it down.
لعن ءاكل الربا وموكله وشاهديه وكاتبهThey are all the same.
هم سواءThe questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Rather, it increases its ugliness to its ugliness, because the stratagem—yes—because a stratagem against the forbidden combines two prohibited matters: one is falling into the forbidden, and the second is deceiving Allah and His Messenger.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And we give an example of something greater than that, which is disbelief. The explicit disbeliever who declares his disbelief is one who has fallen into disbelief and has committed this great sin, but the hypocrite who displays Islam and appears as a righteous man while concealing disbelief is more sinful and greater. For this reason, Allah placed the hypocrites in the lowest depth of the Fire, below the disbelievers who declare their disbelief. So the one who uses a stratagem against riba is more severe than the one who gives riba explicitly, or more severe than the one who takes riba explicitly, because he combined the two prohibitions: the prohibition of riba and the prohibition of stratagem and deception of the One who knows the treachery of the eyes and what the breasts conceal. And it is established from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) that he said:
The reward of deeds depends upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended.
إنما الأعمال بالنيات وإنما لكل امرئ ما نوىThe questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh :
and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended
وإنما لكل امرئٍ ما نوىThe questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : These bags of cardamom, as the brother said, remain in the merchant's shop for years, perhaps, or months, or weeks, or whatever Allah wills of this.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : The merchant comes to him and buys them from him according to what he agreed with the poor man regarding the profit.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Because he first agrees with the poor man that I will lend you ten for eleven, or fifteen, or more, or less. Then this merchant and this borrower go to the shop owner, and the merchant buys the goods from him at a price they agree upon. Then, with that, immediately in the same session, he sells them to the borrower according to what they agreed upon regarding the profit or the cost-plus sale. Then, after that, the borrower sells them to the shop owner for less than what the shop owner sold them to the merchant for.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Then he takes the money and goes out with it in his pocket. This is the case, the trick and the deception. And the Shaykh al-Islam (may Allah have mercy on him) mentioned this issue and called it the threefold riba transaction. This is the meaning of what he called it, because his exact wording has escaped me now.
The questioner : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh : And with that, he said: This is forbidden without doubt and is riba. And he (may Allah have mercy on him) used to narrate in the issue of tawarruq two opinions from the people of knowledge, then he would choose the prohibition himself. So that indicates that this issue is not the issue of tawarruq that some people use as an excuse, and say: The well-known opinion of the Hanbali school is the permissibility of the issue of tawarruq. We say this: The well-known opinion of the Hanbali school is the permissibility of the issue of tawarruq, but the issue of tawarruq is not with this obvious and clear stratagem. The issue of tawarruq, as the jurists (may Allah have mercy on them) said, is when a person needs cash and buys what is worth one hundred for one hundred and twenty over a term.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And of course, he bought it in the sound and correct way, without the ten for eleven and the ten for fifteen, or anything. I needed, for example, money, so I went to the shop owner and said: Sell me this thing for a year. It is worth one hundred now, I said to him: For one hundred and twenty. And I took it and went and sold it. This is the issue of tawarruq.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : As for this issue, it is not of tawarruq in any way, and it does not apply to tawarruq at all.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : That is because, first, they agree on the cost-plus sale, so the merchant sells to the borrower what he does not own with a profit, and this, although it is not specified, is in his debt.
Second, it involves selling the item before taking possession of it and receiving it.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Third, it involves selling the item before moving it from its place, and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade selling goods where they are bought until the merchants take them to their dwellings.
And the fact that some people say: I took possession of it because I counted it. Mere counting is not taking possession, without doubt, and no one says that it is taking possession, because taking possession means that the thing is in your hand and in your control. And what is this counting that you take possession of? What is it from taking possession? But the scholars say: What needs to be counted, it is necessary to count it for its taking possession.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Meaning that its taking possession is not completed except by its counting, and this is a correct matter.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And as for the issue of saying: Mere touching it with one's hand or counting it with a gesture is taking possession. This is not accepted at all.
The questioner : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh : Then, this transaction is in reality not intended, because the merchant does not turn over this cardamom, nor does he ask about its type, nor does he ask about its defect and safety. And perhaps this has spoiled from the length of time, and perhaps the worm has eaten it, and they do not know. Rather, I believe that if the shop owner brought bags of sand and described them and said to the people: This is sugar for those who trade in this way, they would take it as sugar based on their custom that they do not turn over, nor look, nor do anything.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And some trustworthy person narrated to me that he came to borrow from a person, so they went to a shop owner who had goods, but these goods were not worth the amount the borrower wanted. So he said: We will arrange something for it. So the shop owner sold it to the merchant first, then the merchant sold it to the poor man second, then the poor man sold it to the shop owner third, then the shop owner sold it a second time to the merchant, then the merchant to the borrower, until he completed what this borrower wanted.
The questioner : Meaning they traded it more than once.
The Shaykh : They bought and sold it more than once. Its value is what it is worth.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : But they played this circular game until they reached the amount of money this borrower wanted.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And another person told me that they went to a shop owner who had sugar, and the sugar was worth one hundred at its current price. He said: I want so many thousands of dirhams. The owner said: This sugar is not worth half of what you want. He said: Then let us raise its price, meaning we raise its value.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Until it reaches the limit you want. So they raised the price. The price of the bag, instead of one hundred, was raised until the value of this little sugar reached what this borrower wanted.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And all these tricks opened up to people from the ... from the first door that this questioner asked about.
The questioner : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh : So there is no doubt in our minds that this transaction contains, for the one who does it, usury (riba), and it is even greater than those who openly engage in usury, because he deceives Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, and he deceives no one but himself, and he does not realize it.
The questioner : May Allah reward you.
The Shaykh : And he will regret it when his time of death comes.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Ibn al-Qayyim mentioned in his book "The Sufficient Answer for One Who Asks About the Healing Medicine" that a man was on his deathbed, so they were teaching him to say "There is no god but Allah," but he kept saying "ten is eleven, ten is eleven."
The questioner : We seek refuge in Allah.
The Shaykh : Because it had taken possession of his heart, so, may Allah protect us, he was afflicted with it at his death until he forgot the testimony of truth because of it.
The questioner : We seek refuge in Allah.
The Shaykh : So we advise our Muslim brothers to avoid these forbidden transactions that involve deceiving Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, and we tell them that what you have done in this way is more severe than what those who openly engage in usury in banks and elsewhere do.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : For they are lighter in burden than you in this regard, because they commit usury while believing it is usury, and they find shame before Allah (Mighty and Majestic) and humility in their souls, and they hope to renew their repentance. The important thing is that they know they are in the wrong and that they deserve punishment, so you find them repenting to Allah and returning to Him. But these tricksters see that they are on a sound, lawful path, so they remain as they are and hardly ever return from this error and misguidance. We ask Allah for safety for us and for them.
The questioner : Amen.
The Shaykh : Then, as far as we know, the profit taken in banks is less than what these people take from these poor people, and the poor people do not know; they think this method is correct and sound, so they say: It is better for us to do a work in which there is no sin, even if the profit is more for us, than to do a forbidden work. But I tell them that this method is more sinful than the method of the banks.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Because, as we mentioned, it is usury and deception.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : But it remains to be considered that it is part of the correct educational policy followed by the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) that when a door is closed through a forbidden path, a door must be opened for people through a permissible path.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : So that they do not stand confused. We say that in this case, the sound path to that is for a man, if he needs a specific item itself, such as needing a car or building materials or other things, to go to the dealers who sell these tools and these items and buy from them the specific item he wants for a higher price, deferred.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And by this he is safe, he is safe from sin. For example, if he needs cement, he goes to the cement dealers and buys from them what is worth ten thousand for twelve thousand and builds with it, and likewise the other materials like iron and sanitary materials and the like.
The questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : And by this he is safe. He might say: I do not want materials or items, I want money for marriage or the like. We say: You have no need for this forbidden transaction. Either you buy the items for marriage in the way we mentioned regarding building materials, or you be patient until Allah makes you rich, because Allah says
But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty.
وليستعفف الذين لا يجدون نكاحاً حتى يغنيهم الله من فضلهLook (for something), even if it is only an iron ring
التمس ولو خاتماً من حديدThe questioner : Yes.
The Shaykh : Yes, indeed.
You have done well. So we tell the listener, Abdul Rahman Abdul Aziz Abdullah Al-Saif from Al-Qassim in Buraydah, that his three questions have been covered in the answer given by His Eminence Shaykh Muhammad al-Salih al-Uthaymeen, which is: the one who sells, for example, a quantity of cardamom while it is in its place to several people, and likewise the second type where the same borrower and debtor go to another shop and buy the item while it is in its place, and the shop owner hands the money to the borrower or the one who gives the cash, and says ten is twelve or fourteen, and so on.
The Shaykh : Very well.