A matter in which there has been much confusion, and we wish to clarify it; it is the matter of the events at the Haram.

Al-Huwaini: All right; regarding the matter in which there has been much confusion, which is the matter of the events at the Haram.

The Shaykh: Yes.
Al-Huwaini: So, this matter, I mean, we want to clarify it?

The Shaykh: I, like other people, had absolutely no knowledge of it at all. But the year, or the season, following the fitnah, I was, as usual, performing Hajj. By the grace of Allah, I had an old car that I used to perform Hajj and 'Umrah with every year. That year, I was surprised and afraid... some of the Muslim youth who adhere to the Book and the Sunnah. I was staying in the tent of one of my Egyptian brothers... in Saudi Arabia, and he isThe Shaykh : Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab al-Banna, and he was my neighbor in Madinah in teaching, and he was also teaching at the university in the secondary school. We were, I mean, in the best of understanding with each other in teaching and neighborliness, until we agreed with him on a proposal we submitted to Shaykh Ibn Baz that we organize a trip for the students every Thursday. The lesson would end with the Zuhr prayer, and we would go out with them to some villages or areas, sometimes to the Red Sea coast. We would ride the bus with between 40 or 45 students, sometimes from... and sometimes from the secondary school. I andThe Shaykh : this al-Banna, and a great deal of good would happen, something that catches the eye and gladdens the heart. The bus would turn into a school from its departure from the university to the station where we were scheduled to get off. Then, it was not long before the first tent was set up that al-Albani would sit down and a circle would be held around him, and so it was day and night. It was scheduled that we would stay there for two nights, Friday night and Saturday night, and in the morning we would be at the university. ThisThe Shaykh : al-Banna—may Allah reward him with good—when I performed Hajj, I would stay in his tent. I noticed that year the large number of students from these brothers who adopt the call of the Book and the Sunnah, asking questions about the Mahdi, when he will emerge, and so on. I heard from them that the Mahdi had emerged! Where? They would say to me—I forget, by Allah—they would say, I don't know, Hail, I don't know what town they were calling it. So I was amazed at them on one hand and joking with them on the other, saying: "My brothers, what has the Mahdi to do with you? The Mahdi will emerge from us; I mean, in Damascus, and the Mahdi is present! And they named him this name, did you hear it in the newspaper, Muhammad what?"

Another questioner : ... .

The Shaykh: Al-Hadrami or what?

Those present: Al-Qahatani.

The Shaykh: Al-Qahatani.
Al-Huwaini: Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah.

The Shaykh: Yes, Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allah, so glory be to Allah! I mean, I was wondering what this talk meant? And they would say that the evidence that the Mahdi is this one is that the visions agreed, and they would cite the hadith when the Companion... that the 27th night is Laylat al-Qadr, so he (peace and blessings be upon him) said: , so they would argue with the agreement of the Companions' visions. So I would say to them: "Where are you and where are the Companions?" And the season ended. And before that, of course, I would pass through Madinah and I would have to stay there for days, and some sessions and some calls would also be held. I remember well that this "Ali Mushrif," who is now famous for summoning or expelling jinn, invited me to dinner, and gathered a group and a crowd of people, and among them was the head of the university at the time, named "Abd Allah ibn Zayd." So he directed a question to "Muhammad ibn Ali Mushrif" about the Mahdi, what is true about him? I spoke specifically, and this is recorded. When the season passed and we heard these words, I knew why the question was from "Ali Mushrif," and perhaps he also mentioned to me that the Mahdi, they say, had emerged here in this country.
The point is: I returned from the season to Damascus, and then after I rested a little, I returned to Amman to my son-in-law "Nizam." The morning of the second or third day, I heard on the radio that in Saudi Arabia they were saying "the incident at the Haram." At that time, I knew what they were talking about was about a plot. So I said to my son-in-law and my daughter: "Do you know who these people are who carried out the fitnah?" They said: "No." I said to them: "I think they are the group of Salafis who were asking me about the Mahdi in Mina." Then the news became clear and it was established that they were indeed from the Salafis, and their leader is this Jahman, what is his name?

Another questioner: Jahman.

The Shaykh: Jahman, yes, this one was in Madinah, and he would come to me and ask me. And he was with "Miqbal," who is now in Yemen and serves the hadith. "Miqbal" was a student at the university, and they would meet at the library... at the mosque. So I said: "Glory be to Allah! This was not in the plan, and this is what we fear from the occurrence of revolutions and coups under the claim of what? Reform. And this... in what I have adopted for about twenty years; that reform does not happen except through purification and education. This is, I mean, the summary of the answer to your question."
It is clear... naturally, I had absolutely no knowledge of what was to happen and what happened, except after the Saudi radio broadcast it. But the Saudi radio—excuse me—the Saudi state, it was reported to me later by brothers while I was in Damascus that after this incident occurred, naturally the police spread throughout all areas of the city, indeed the kingdom. And among that, they were going back and forth to the hospitals; because they assumed that there must have been injured from these people who were transported to the hospitals, and they wanted to get them. So they would come with lists of names to the hospitals, saying if the name so-and-so and so-and-so comes to you, you must take him. So one of the doctors there who had a connection with some of our friends in Damascus informed him that the name of so-and-so was mentioned in the list. Yes, so when I learned of that, I contactedThe Shaykh : Ibn Baz because the next season had come, and I asked him for his opinion: I mean, what do you think, should I perform Hajj as usual or not? So his answer was to wait. And so it went for approximately three or four years, and I did not perform Hajj or 'Umrah as I used to. When, I mean, the matters were revealed by the authorities there and the truth became clear to them, especially some of the tapes, among which was a tape belonging to "Ali Mushrif"; because "Ali Mushrif" was called among those who were called. What didThe Shaykh : al-Albani say? He said to them: "These are these tapes, talk, of course, we do not support all these revolutions and coups." So when this truth became clear to them, and in the first place, there was no official ban on me, so I began to go back and forth as I did before, and praise be to Allah.
Al-Huwaini: All right; my Shaykh, a footnote to this story.

The Shaykh: Yes. - Is there anything here, no, yes - .
Al-Huwaini: I mean, what is your opinion, from the fiqh perspective, regarding the actions of these people in the Sacred Mosque?

The Shaykh: If they did that in the open, it is not permissible; so what about the Sacred Mosque?!
Al-Huwaini: I mean, is their punishment death?

The Shaykh: Of course.
Al-Huwaini: Even if they interpret?

The Shaykh: And if they interpret, in their decision they are interpreters, the Khawarij are interpreters. And therefore, when Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was asked, and he had fought them: "Are they disbelievers?" He said: "No, they fled from disbelief," but they stirred up a blind fitnah, so they met their reward. This exiting is not permissible Islamically at all; so what about in the Sacred Mosque?! This is a greater sin.
Al-Huwaini: What is famous among us in Egypt is that the reason for the disagreement or your not entering Saudi Arabia due to... the events at the Haram is thatThe Shaykh : Ibn Baz issued a fatwa to kill them with the sword, andThe Shaykh : Nasir al-Din al-Albani said: "They are interpreters and it is not permissible to kill them" and the like. Is this what is famous among us?

The Shaykh: No, I... absolutely not, I mean, the non-entry has absolutely no relation to that; because this caution was from me.
Al-Huwaini: Yes.

Another questioner: ... the method of entry and storming the mosque and using... toxic gases, is this also...?

The Shaykh : And, by Allah, these are matters related to the prevailing fitnah (trial, discord or temptation). If we assume that they can eliminate it by means other than these methods, then that is what is obligatory. The truth is that this issue requires very precise study by the scholars of knowledge and the religious politicians among them, and this is contrary to the original principle.

Another questioner : ... the pilgrims ... .

The Shaykh : What did they do, for example?

Another questioner : ... ؟

The Shaykh : That is the problem remaining. It is said, is this correct or not? In any case, torture is prohibited.