It is well known that many of the Salaf declared the Jahmiyyah to be disbelievers, and declared disbelievers those who held to the createdness of the Qur'an and other matters that entail disbelief.

The questioner : In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
It is well known that many of the Salaf declared the Jahmiyyah to be disbelievers, and declared disbelievers those who held to the createdness of the Qur'an and other matters that entail disbelief; = -- as ... is there any blame -- = is there any blame on one who declares these people disbelievers in the manner of the Salaf? Furthermore, if people are compelled to adopt one of the positions, which is not declaring them disbelievers, this emboldens the callers to innovation and the ignorant of the innovators to persist in their acts of shirk (associating partners with Allah) if we do not declare them disbelievers. So, if the narrations are added alongside the position of not declaring them disbelievers, in addition to the stance of the Salaf, so that it serves as a deterrent for many of the bad callers and the ignorant of the innovators from persisting and committing acts of shirk ...?

The Shaykh : What I believe is.

The Shaykh Al-Halabi: Ibn Taymiyyah is referring to.

The Shaykh : Yes?

The Shaykh Al-Halabi: ... Ibn Taymiyyah relates the statements of the Salaf regarding takfir (declaring someone a disbeliever), then he expresses his own opinion.

The Shaykh: Yes.
Regarding the takfir (declaring someone a disbeliever) of the Salaf of the Jahmiyyah or the Jahmi, in my opinion, the scholars of the Salaf established the proof against those people, and they persisted in their misguidance and error. We do not doubt that such takfir (declaring someone a disbeliever) is on the right path. However, other misguidances are not to be compared to the misguidance of the Jahmiyyah, because in my opinion, there is no one who establishes the proof against these people who have deviated from the correct Islamic creed, as we mentioned today in some gatherings. Therefore, we differentiate and say: this is kufr (disbelief) and this is shirk (associating partners with Allah), but we do not rush to declare someone a disbeliever and expel one who has fallen into kufr (disbelief) from the religion except after the proof has been established.
As for what came in the question that the Salaf declared the Jahmiyyah to be disbelievers, the answer is: in my opinion, they believed that the proof had been established against them from many and many angles, especially since the circumstances were favorable for the people of the Sunnah to establish conclusive proofs against the misguidance of these Jahmiyyah; despite this, they persisted in their misguidance, so in response, the scholars of the Salaf persisted in declaring them disbelievers, so then.
-- And upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings, and upon you be peace, and the mercy of Allah and His blessings ... welcome, welcome --.

The Shaykh : Rabee': ... We explain to people that this matter, this is shirk (associating partners with Allah), and this matter is kufr (disbelief), and this is a severe matter, and the Salaf declared disbelievers for it, but we do not declare disbelievers except after the proof has been established. We fear that many of you, I mean, may truly be polytheists in reality and will abide in the Fire; in order to deter people; because when the fatwa (a scholarly legal ruling) comes to people, it is always cold like this, without drawing attention to the positions of the Salaf regarding these innovations, I mean, he says: "By Allah, they are Muslims, Muslims, and that's it, the matter is over, no need, he is a Muslim, a Muslim; the proof has not been established against him or anything." So I say to him: "My brother, these are matters for which the Salaf declared disbelievers. We do not declare disbelievers, but these matters are very serious, and we must warn people, and we must cooperate, all callers to Allah (Blessed and Exalted is He), in saving the Muslims from this danger."

The Shaykh: Yes.

The Shaykh : Rabee': So this is a matter for which the Salaf declared disbelievers. I do not declare disbelievers, but it is a dangerous matter for which the Salaf declared disbelievers, and many Muslims, I mean, may be exposed to abiding in the Fire.

The Shaykh: Yes.

The Shaykh : Rabee': So we strive earnestly to save people from this for which the Salaf declared disbelievers, and they ruled that its perpetrator is a polytheist. So, for example, we do not issue a fatwa (a scholarly legal ruling) saying, "This matter does not concern us." We do not declare disbelievers except when the proof has been established, and that is it. If I relate alongside this the takfir (declaring someone a disbeliever) of the Salaf and their strictness in this matter, it may serve as a deterrent and a warning for many people from persisting in committing such a matter that entails disbelief. And I will consult you, I say: should I use this approach as a deterrent for people?

The Shaykh: Yes, I do not hesitate at all regarding this addition that you are proposing.

The Shaykh : Rabi': May Allah reward you with good, may Allah preserve you.

The Shaykh: But I say: if it is said that this is kufr (disbelief) and shirk (associating partners with Allah) and misguidance and a cause of exiting the religion, this is not an easy matter.

The Shaykh : Rabi': That is enough for them, O Shaykh.

The Shaykh : Yes?

The Shaykh : Rabee': It is sufficient for them.

The Shaykh: No, I say: if we add it, that is better, but this is not an easy matter when we say: "This action you are doing is kufr (disbelief) and shirk (associating partners with Allah), and it means it takes its doer out of the religion if he knows that this matter is so."

The Shaykh : Rabee': May Allah reward you with good, correct.

The Shaykh: But the addition that you mentioned, there is no room for denying its value.

The Shaykh : Rabi': May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh: Yes.

The Shaykh : Rabee': ... I sat with people many times and again, does the Shaykh al-Islam say this? Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned, until he said to the Jahmiyyah: "It is kufr (disbelief); so I do not declare myself a disbeliever"; meaning he does not declare them disbelievers. Why do we declare people disbelievers then? We do not declare all people disbelievers, but we want good for people, we want deterrents for people that deter them from these innovations that entail disbelief.

The Shaykh: Correct.

The Shaykh : Rabee': We tell them: The Salaf declared disbelievers for these issues, they declared the Jahmiyyah disbelievers for their actions, for greater problems, to the point that they declared the Jahmiyyah disbelievers, and now Muslims have acts of shirk (associating partners with Allah) and things more dangerous than those issues for which Muslims were declared disbelievers.

The Shaykh: We have nothing, may Allah bless you.

The Shaykh : Rabee': There are many of these things. The positions of the Salaf are not to be buried; because now people have buried the opinion of the Salaf and their positions, they have buried it completely, even though they ... everything, they ... about such fatwas (scholarly legal rulings).

The Shaykh: This statement, may Allah bless you, as we said earlier, it should not be disputed.

The Shaykh : Rabi': May Allah reward you with good.

The Shaykh : But in my belief, this is more a matter of preaching and guidance than a matter of scientific knowledge.

The Shaykh : Rabi': Yes.

The Shaykh: So if one of those people were to say to us: Why did the Salaf declare those Jahmiyyah and their like disbelievers, and you are scrupulous and say: We do not declare disbelievers?

The Shaykh : Rabi': Yes.

The Shaykh : We have no answer except: After establishing the proof.

The Shaykh : Rabee': Yes, after the proof has been established, this is said to them, but I say, I mean, often they have exploited the fatwas (scholarly legal rulings) of Ibn Taymiyyah. I see that Ibn Taymiyyah relates the positions of the Salaf in his speech, he presents the positions of the Salaf in the issues and clarifies that they declared disbelievers in them, then he himself expresses his opinion. So people cling to the opinion of Ibn Taymiyyah for purposes and desires in their souls, just to say to you: "You declare Muslims disbelievers, and Ibn Taymiyyah does not declare them disbelievers, and that is it." They cling to this statement!

The Shaykh: Such opinions, may Allah bless you, there is no room for eliminating them, but we are speaking about what concerns us and our approach, so what you mentioned, I mean, is a matter in which two people do not differ and in which two camels do not butt heads, as they said in old times.
Listen, in the issue, in the topic, or in ...?

The questioner: Close to this issue.

The Shaykh: I fear it is far.

The questioner: A group from Pakistan, a group from the people of hadith, and they came with important questions, and I want to translate these issues for you.

The Shaykh: This, O Shams, requires a special session.

The questioner: These people rushed, they said: We must ask for an opinion on this issueThe Shaykh : , we take an opinionThe Shaykh .

The Shaykh : ... The group gathered here.