If a state is established by a certain group or party with an unrefined Islam, where there is a delay in knowledge and there are innovations, do you cooperate with it?
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The questioner : It was mentioned... You mentioned in... I think, and Allah knows best, that you meant... If the state of Allah (Mighty and Majestic), the Islamic state, were established on earth now, the answer would be that it is necessary that... such details after "refinement and education," is the Islam refined? ...
The Shaykh : No, excuse me... Not after refinement and education, but with refinement and education.
The questioner : With refinement and education, yes... the Muslim state... "Hizb al-Tahrir," on unrefined Islam, would it be a state?
The Shaykh : A Muslim state, just as it was on...
The questioner : Not Islamic.
The Shaykh : No, it depends on what prevails, what is the dominant factor: Islam or non-Islam?
The questioner : I mean, the refinement, the lack of refining Islam did not take it out of Islam.
The Shaykh : No, I seek refuge in Allah... Refinement is a separate matter.
The questioner : No, I mean, if a state for Islam were established now...
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Would it be a state?
The Shaykh : One must submit to it and advise it, and strive for refinement and education within it, but...
Another questioner : Which Islamic state?
The questioner : ... .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Which research? When we say... refinement and education is not to say... an imaginary Muslim state was established... this is our position, we have principles, we sometimes choose a path contrary to many Islamic preachers, that the lesser evil is to repel the greater, so there is no percentage if a state for a Muslim group is established, no matter how delayed they are in knowledge of the Sunnah, no matter how much they are innovators, and so on; here is better than us living under disbelief... but the best is to say: what is the path to establishing Islamic rule and the Islamic state? Is it this gathering that is not based on understanding in religion or on the education of Islam? ... This is not the path; the path that Muslims, or at least a group of them, must follow to achieve the truly righteous Muslim state is to follow the path of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) himself, and since there are approximately fourteen centuries between us and the Messenger (peace be upon him), and during this long period, what has entered into Islam in hadith, in rulings, in independent legal reasoning, and so on; if we turn to Islam... certainly we have not turned to the Islam that was at that time as it was revealed by Allah (Mighty and Majestic), and since the matter is so, the outcome of the state established on such Islam will not be like the outcome of... which was closer to the era of Islam, and I say that Islam is the medicine for hearts and the diseases of souls and the like, so if there is something strange in this Islam, it will... the strange matter... either corrupt... absolutely...
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Either it corrupts... absolutely, or it reduces the impact of its benefit, and so on; therefore, when we think about establishing the state, what is the path? It is the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him), this is fundamentally accepted by all the second groups.
Another questioner : Everyone says this.
The Shaykh: Yes.
But I say, in truth, it may not... and even if they cannot contradict it, is the path of the Messenger known to all the Muslim brothers? Of course, the answer is: No.
The questioner : The Muslims who...
The Shaykh : No, now we are going down the line of the subject, suppose... the Messenger (peace be upon him) is not known, so I say: the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him) is not known to every group working for Islam.
Another questioner : It is not known.
The Shaykh : ... We will say: these groups and these parties that do not know the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him) to establish Islam... will these establish a Muslim state?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Okay... but if the path of the Messenger... look, my professor, there is something here.
The questioner : Yes, it is... now we need a question again, I mean, is there a path or something, or did you answer without mentioning it.
The Shaykh : Very good.
The questioner : I mean the path.
The Shaykh : This is the method of the people of unveiling [everyone laughs!].
We want to ask the individuals or groups that strive to establish the Muslim state, but we... are very, very slow, and rejected by others because of this, but we are fully convinced that this is the way to create the Muslim group, the Muslim structure, and the Muslim state, and it is not the gradualism of Islam as it came to us in the books of theological discourse and in the books of branch sciences; because in them are things that are disbelief itself, and things that are close to disbelief, and things that make lawful what Allah has forbidden, and things that forbid what Allah has made lawful, and so on; so it is not permissible for us to adopt this and want to establish a Muslim state... we strive with what we can and call upon everyone who has knowledge to... in the East and the West, in any country, one day these forces will respond to each other, and they will refine this Islam as much as they can from what is not part of it, and during the refinement itself, as some imagine that... a line followed by another line... they educate themselves and their children and their offspring on this Islam in creed and ruling, and as a result, the Islamic society and the Muslim state will be established; the Sunnah of Allah in His creation,[Al-Ahzab 33:62] ... Islamic coups that this is not the method of the Messenger... and even if we do not believe in this path.
The questioner : On this... one path.
The Shaykh : Yes?
The questioner : The path is one and the way is one to achieve the establishment of the state of Allah on the earth of Allah.
The Shaykh : Yes, as it should be, I mean; establishing the Muslim state as it should be, as for half-solutions, we want an Islamic state seventy percent, sixty, fifty, possible, of course, not this path.
The questioner : What is your position regarding the second paths that adopt such things?
The Shaykh : Like what?
The questioner : Like those who want to establish the state of Allah (Mighty and Majestic) on... sixty, seventy, fifty... forty...
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh: Yes, okay.
The questioner : Your position regarding this call and your call, my opinion is that you are slow in this, and you know with knowledge that this is the path.
The Shaykh : Okay, what is our position from which side? Do you want, for example... what is your position, the word is elastic...
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Do you mean you declare them disbelievers?
The questioner: No.
The Shaykh : Do you mean you cooperate with them? I do not know, do you mean this? So define your question.
The questioner : Fine, first regarding... I mean: without definition. Another matter: do you cooperate with them to establish the religion of Allah (Mighty and Majestic)?
The Shaykh: No.
The questioner : And why?
The Shaykh : Because they are leaving our path!!
The questioner : Yes, leaving the choice of method and a path other than your path, this does not take them out of the religion, but what makes you cooperate with them in establishing the religion of Allah (Mighty and Majestic)?
The Shaykh : No; because they want... forty, fifty, sixty percent.
The questioner : Excellent, the practical reality, your movement, do you cooperate? If I am mistaken... then what?
The Shaykh : But I hope we define the meaning of cooperation; because the meaning of cooperation, as you know... if you mean this, you will not be able to stay silent, but if you mean that we meet with them on some points that are very natural, all the sects.
The questioner : No one has this.
The Shaykh : Yes?
The questioner : No one doubts it, and Allah knows best.
The Shaykh: That is my intention.
The questioner : No, but interaction, I mean, for example, in a group in this call, who are, for example, in that call?
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : It would be.
The questioner : I mean similarity... of the group?
The Shaykh : There is no...
The questioner : The leadership to which he submits.
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Two leaderships or one?
The Shaykh : He submits to it in ideas?
The questioner : In his ideas and his rulings and his movement.
The Shaykh : No, he did not imagine that he would have two leaderships, but suppose he is one of those who puts one foot forward and the other back; I mean, one came to us from any of the other parties and started listening to us and we listen to him; what do we say to him: you have nothing to do with us, goodbye?
The questioner: No.
The Shaykh : No, we open the door wide for him. As a result of the matter, he will interact with the new call he has been hearing. He heard it the first time, then came back after a month, two months, or three; we didn't see him for a long time. Then he attended a lecture or a speech, and so on. And lo and behold, he attends daily... weekly, and so on. This means the man is interacting, he is responding to the group. What is supposed to happen, naturally, is that he cannot split in two, half with these and half with those. At the beginning, he has to go either with this group or with that group. It does not matter much to us if he leaves and goes to that group, unlike any other group.
The questioner : Why?
The Shaykh : Let me clarify for you; do not worry, we are not concerned; it does not matter much to us. Because our call now is scientific, creedal, and educational; it is not a political call... establishing a Muslim state; because that is a step for us.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, it comes later.
Now, for example, we do not mislead people by giving fiery lectures and sermons about jihad in the path of Allah, jihad in the path of Allah. I consider this misleading the people.
The questioner : Misleading which people?
The Shaykh : Yes?
The questioner : The Muslim people.
The Shaykh : The people who are living...
The questioner : Do I not call these Muslims to this jihad?
The Shaykh : No, you do not call them; because you yourself are not able to fight in jihad.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : So you call them to what is impossible.
The questioner : And he leaves...
The Shaykh : Yes?
Another questioner : And leaves the name of jihad?
The Shaykh : ... We are a realistic and lawful group. Can you fight in jihad?
The questioner : We?
The Shaykh : You or you, any person.
The questioner : Carrying weapons, do you mean?
The Shaykh : Yes, yes, of course.
The questioner : In fighting.
The Shaykh : Fighting the Jews and expelling them and throwing them into the sea.
The questioner : The Jews and others.
The Shaykh : We do not differ, but we... the Jews, considering that they are worse than these. Well, we do not care about these or those. What does it mean to call people to jihad in the path of Allah? "To the weapons, to the weapons"; is this not misleading?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Misleading, yes. So understand, the professor there who is criticizing us!
Another questioner : I criticize in order to understand.
The Shaykh : ... So when we... we have not reached, and unfortunately of course, political organization and military organization, and so on. So what matters to us now is that the person who comes to us from any party receives tawhid (the oneness of Allah), as you do, contrary to what you used to think. We start by criticizing the ring and the miswak, and I don't know what, and so on. He receives from us tawhid and what does not contradict tawhid, and nothing more than that, which even the least of the Salafi Muslims themselves do not know, which the people of al-Azhar read, that this Qur'an, for example, which is in our hands, is not the speech of Allah (Mighty and Majestic), but rather the speech of Allah is the mental speech, while this speech, the Qur'an, is created, and so on. So if the individual who enters with us and listens only corrects his creed, then praise be to Allah;; so what do you say if he also learns other things besides the creed, from the Sunnah and caring for it, and turning away from innovations and newly invented matters, and so on? So if he leaves us and goes there, it means a Salafi army met another group, so he will fulfill his duty there.
Yes?
The questioner: Correct.
The Shaykh: All right.
The questioner : There is a matter here, for example.
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
The questioner: Regarding ... .
The Shaykh : Allah is sufficient for me, remember your Lord.
The questioner : There is no god but Allah.
Well...?
Another questioner : ... the implication ... .
The Shaykh : No, excuse me... Not after refinement and education, but with refinement and education.
The questioner : With refinement and education, yes... the Muslim state... "Hizb al-Tahrir," on unrefined Islam, would it be a state?
The Shaykh : A Muslim state, just as it was on...
The questioner : Not Islamic.
The Shaykh : No, it depends on what prevails, what is the dominant factor: Islam or non-Islam?
The questioner : I mean, the refinement, the lack of refining Islam did not take it out of Islam.
The Shaykh : No, I seek refuge in Allah... Refinement is a separate matter.
The questioner : No, I mean, if a state for Islam were established now...
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Would it be a state?
The Shaykh : One must submit to it and advise it, and strive for refinement and education within it, but...
Another questioner : Which Islamic state?
The questioner : ... .
Another questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Which research? When we say... refinement and education is not to say... an imaginary Muslim state was established... this is our position, we have principles, we sometimes choose a path contrary to many Islamic preachers, that the lesser evil is to repel the greater, so there is no percentage if a state for a Muslim group is established, no matter how delayed they are in knowledge of the Sunnah, no matter how much they are innovators, and so on; here is better than us living under disbelief... but the best is to say: what is the path to establishing Islamic rule and the Islamic state? Is it this gathering that is not based on understanding in religion or on the education of Islam? ... This is not the path; the path that Muslims, or at least a group of them, must follow to achieve the truly righteous Muslim state is to follow the path of the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) himself, and since there are approximately fourteen centuries between us and the Messenger (peace be upon him), and during this long period, what has entered into Islam in hadith, in rulings, in independent legal reasoning, and so on; if we turn to Islam... certainly we have not turned to the Islam that was at that time as it was revealed by Allah (Mighty and Majestic), and since the matter is so, the outcome of the state established on such Islam will not be like the outcome of... which was closer to the era of Islam, and I say that Islam is the medicine for hearts and the diseases of souls and the like, so if there is something strange in this Islam, it will... the strange matter... either corrupt... absolutely...
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Either it corrupts... absolutely, or it reduces the impact of its benefit, and so on; therefore, when we think about establishing the state, what is the path? It is the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him), this is fundamentally accepted by all the second groups.
Another questioner : Everyone says this.
The Shaykh: Yes.
But I say, in truth, it may not... and even if they cannot contradict it, is the path of the Messenger known to all the Muslim brothers? Of course, the answer is: No.
The questioner : The Muslims who...
The Shaykh : No, now we are going down the line of the subject, suppose... the Messenger (peace be upon him) is not known, so I say: the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him) is not known to every group working for Islam.
Another questioner : It is not known.
The Shaykh : ... We will say: these groups and these parties that do not know the path of the Messenger (peace be upon him) to establish Islam... will these establish a Muslim state?
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Okay... but if the path of the Messenger... look, my professor, there is something here.
The questioner : Yes, it is... now we need a question again, I mean, is there a path or something, or did you answer without mentioning it.
The Shaykh : Very good.
The questioner : I mean the path.
The Shaykh : This is the method of the people of unveiling [everyone laughs!].
We want to ask the individuals or groups that strive to establish the Muslim state, but we... are very, very slow, and rejected by others because of this, but we are fully convinced that this is the way to create the Muslim group, the Muslim structure, and the Muslim state, and it is not the gradualism of Islam as it came to us in the books of theological discourse and in the books of branch sciences; because in them are things that are disbelief itself, and things that are close to disbelief, and things that make lawful what Allah has forbidden, and things that forbid what Allah has made lawful, and so on; so it is not permissible for us to adopt this and want to establish a Muslim state... we strive with what we can and call upon everyone who has knowledge to... in the East and the West, in any country, one day these forces will respond to each other, and they will refine this Islam as much as they can from what is not part of it, and during the refinement itself, as some imagine that... a line followed by another line... they educate themselves and their children and their offspring on this Islam in creed and ruling, and as a result, the Islamic society and the Muslim state will be established; the Sunnah of Allah in His creation,
and you will not find in the way of Allah any change.
وَلَنْ تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًاThe questioner : On this... one path.
The Shaykh : Yes?
The questioner : The path is one and the way is one to achieve the establishment of the state of Allah on the earth of Allah.
The Shaykh : Yes, as it should be, I mean; establishing the Muslim state as it should be, as for half-solutions, we want an Islamic state seventy percent, sixty, fifty, possible, of course, not this path.
The questioner : What is your position regarding the second paths that adopt such things?
The Shaykh : Like what?
The questioner : Like those who want to establish the state of Allah (Mighty and Majestic) on... sixty, seventy, fifty... forty...
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh: Yes, okay.
The questioner : Your position regarding this call and your call, my opinion is that you are slow in this, and you know with knowledge that this is the path.
The Shaykh : Okay, what is our position from which side? Do you want, for example... what is your position, the word is elastic...
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Do you mean you declare them disbelievers?
The questioner: No.
The Shaykh : Do you mean you cooperate with them? I do not know, do you mean this? So define your question.
The questioner : Fine, first regarding... I mean: without definition. Another matter: do you cooperate with them to establish the religion of Allah (Mighty and Majestic)?
The Shaykh: No.
The questioner : And why?
The Shaykh : Because they are leaving our path!!
The questioner : Yes, leaving the choice of method and a path other than your path, this does not take them out of the religion, but what makes you cooperate with them in establishing the religion of Allah (Mighty and Majestic)?
The Shaykh : No; because they want... forty, fifty, sixty percent.
The questioner : Excellent, the practical reality, your movement, do you cooperate? If I am mistaken... then what?
The Shaykh : But I hope we define the meaning of cooperation; because the meaning of cooperation, as you know... if you mean this, you will not be able to stay silent, but if you mean that we meet with them on some points that are very natural, all the sects.
The questioner : No one has this.
The Shaykh : Yes?
The questioner : No one doubts it, and Allah knows best.
The Shaykh: That is my intention.
The questioner : No, but interaction, I mean, for example, in a group in this call, who are, for example, in that call?
The Shaykh : ... .
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : It would be.
The questioner : I mean similarity... of the group?
The Shaykh : There is no...
The questioner : The leadership to which he submits.
The Shaykh: Yes.
The questioner : Two leaderships or one?
The Shaykh : He submits to it in ideas?
The questioner : In his ideas and his rulings and his movement.
The Shaykh : No, he did not imagine that he would have two leaderships, but suppose he is one of those who puts one foot forward and the other back; I mean, one came to us from any of the other parties and started listening to us and we listen to him; what do we say to him: you have nothing to do with us, goodbye?
The questioner: No.
The Shaykh : No, we open the door wide for him. As a result of the matter, he will interact with the new call he has been hearing. He heard it the first time, then came back after a month, two months, or three; we didn't see him for a long time. Then he attended a lecture or a speech, and so on. And lo and behold, he attends daily... weekly, and so on. This means the man is interacting, he is responding to the group. What is supposed to happen, naturally, is that he cannot split in two, half with these and half with those. At the beginning, he has to go either with this group or with that group. It does not matter much to us if he leaves and goes to that group, unlike any other group.
The questioner : Why?
The Shaykh : Let me clarify for you; do not worry, we are not concerned; it does not matter much to us. Because our call now is scientific, creedal, and educational; it is not a political call... establishing a Muslim state; because that is a step for us.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : Yes, it comes later.
Now, for example, we do not mislead people by giving fiery lectures and sermons about jihad in the path of Allah, jihad in the path of Allah. I consider this misleading the people.
The questioner : Misleading which people?
The Shaykh : Yes?
The questioner : The Muslim people.
The Shaykh : The people who are living...
The questioner : Do I not call these Muslims to this jihad?
The Shaykh : No, you do not call them; because you yourself are not able to fight in jihad.
The questioner : ... .
The Shaykh : So you call them to what is impossible.
The questioner : And he leaves...
The Shaykh : Yes?
Another questioner : And leaves the name of jihad?
The Shaykh : ... We are a realistic and lawful group. Can you fight in jihad?
The questioner : We?
The Shaykh : You or you, any person.
The questioner : Carrying weapons, do you mean?
The Shaykh : Yes, yes, of course.
The questioner : In fighting.
The Shaykh : Fighting the Jews and expelling them and throwing them into the sea.
The questioner : The Jews and others.
The Shaykh : We do not differ, but we... the Jews, considering that they are worse than these. Well, we do not care about these or those. What does it mean to call people to jihad in the path of Allah? "To the weapons, to the weapons"; is this not misleading?
The questioner: Yes.
The Shaykh : Misleading, yes. So understand, the professor there who is criticizing us!
Another questioner : I criticize in order to understand.
The Shaykh : ... So when we... we have not reached, and unfortunately of course, political organization and military organization, and so on. So what matters to us now is that the person who comes to us from any party receives tawhid (the oneness of Allah), as you do, contrary to what you used to think. We start by criticizing the ring and the miswak, and I don't know what, and so on. He receives from us tawhid and what does not contradict tawhid, and nothing more than that, which even the least of the Salafi Muslims themselves do not know, which the people of al-Azhar read, that this Qur'an, for example, which is in our hands, is not the speech of Allah (Mighty and Majestic), but rather the speech of Allah is the mental speech, while this speech, the Qur'an, is created, and so on. So if the individual who enters with us and listens only corrects his creed, then praise be to Allah;
That Allah guides a man through your hand is more beloved to me than camels of red hair.
لَأَن يهدي الله على يديك رجلًا أحبُّ إليَّ من حُمُر النّعمYes?
The questioner: Correct.
The Shaykh: All right.
The questioner : There is a matter here, for example.
The Shaykh: Go ahead.
The questioner: Regarding ... .
The Shaykh : Allah is sufficient for me, remember your Lord.
The questioner : There is no god but Allah.
Well...?
Another questioner : ... the implication ... .
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.