A discussion on the ruling regarding moving the finger during the tashahhud?
Machine translationRead the Arabic original
The student: If you please, a question. If you please, regarding moving the finger, the hadith of Zayd ibn Qudamah contradicts ten of the narrators, eleven of the narrators...
The Shaykh: There is no contradiction, may Allah reward you. Those who say to you that there is a contradiction, the contradiction would involve a clash. As for moving, it includes pointing. Do you understand me now? Does moving include pointing or not?
The student: The wording.
The Shaykh: Listen, answer the question, may Allah guide you. Answer the question.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Does moving include pointing or not?
The student: Ibn Hazm says no.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. I am asking you, are you Ibn Hazm?
The student: Ibn Khuzaymah.
The Shaykh: Are you Ibn Khuzaymah?
The student: No.
The Shaykh: I am asking you, I am asking you. If Ibn Khuzaymah were here, I would speak to him, but I cannot greet him, so I am speaking to you now. What is in your mind? What did you understand?
The student: Pointing is not moving.
The Shaykh: Listen, did you understand the question? What is it?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : What is it.
The student: Is pointing the same as moving?
The Shaykh: No, may Allah guide you, may Allah guide you. And therefore you must understand scientific issues, especially when there is precision. I say: Can you imagine moving without pointing?
The student: I cannot imagine it.
The Shaykh: No problem, let him digest the topic so that he is convinced by himself. So think, take a moment of time with you.
The student: If you please, our Shaykh, may Allah bless you.
Another student : Later, there is a hadith of Ibn 'Umar, narrated by al-Bayhaqi from Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan from Ibn Jurayj.
The Shaykh: Have you finished with the first issue, may Allah guide you? Have you finished with the first issue? Have you finished with the first issue?
The student: If we have finished with it.
The Shaykh: If.
The student: We have finished with it.
The Shaykh: On what did we finish?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: On what did we finish?
The student: On the pointing.
The Shaykh: May Allah forgive you. You need to finish with the fact that pointing does not contradict moving, do you see? So if you are convinced of this, we can proceed. Even if the brothers will not be patient with us, perhaps, but nevertheless, if you are convinced of this, I can listen to your words about the hadith of Ibn 'Umar.
The student: No, he denies moving in the same hadith, my teacher.
The Shaykh: There is no power or strength except with Allah, my brother. I know this, but I am speaking to you now. What is the hadith that denies moving?
The student: The hadith of Ibn 'Umar.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you.
The student: From Ibn Jurayj from 'Amr ibn Dinar, he said: which is the hadith of 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, sorry, not Ibn 'Umar. He said: "The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) pointed with his finger and did not move it." And its chain is authentic.
The Shaykh: You say its chain is authentic?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Do you know the difference between authentic and weak?
The student : If Allah wills.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. Who is the narrator from Ibn Jurayj?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Who is the narrator from Ibn Jurayj?
The student: Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan.
The Shaykh: Okay, is the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan authentic?
The student: He is one of the men of Muslim.
The Shaykh : I ask Allah to guide you.
The student: He is one of the men of Muslim.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. Is the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan authentic? Your answer should not be "he is one of the men of Muslim," because among the men of Muslim, there are those whose hadith is authentic, those whose hadith is good, and those whose hadith is weak and is cited as evidence. All of this is present in "Sahih Muslim." So when you answer with this answer, it means you are one of two people: either you are ignorant and do not know this knowledge, or you are feigning ignorance. So I am asking you: Is the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan authentic?
The student : Trustworthy.
The Shaykh: Listen, may Allah guide you. What will be your answer? He is one of the men of Muslim. Do you believe that every man present in "Sahih Muslim" has an authentic hadith?
The student: If it is according to its supporting chains.
The Shaykh: If it is like that, the answer should be yes or no.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Is every man present in "Sahih Muslim" one whose hadith is authentic?
The student: If he is in the original texts, then it is authentic.
The Shaykh: There is no power or strength except with Allah! May Allah guide you. I am cutting to the chase. The best speech is what is brief and to the point. Every narrator present in "Sahih Muslim" has an authentic hadith. Either you say yes or you say no?
The student: According to the issue, my teacher. According to the issue. I could not manage it.
The Shaykh: I am asking you. If my question is general, you give a general answer. If my question is detailed, you give a detailed answer. Now my question is: Is every man present in "Sahih Muslim" one whose hadith is authentic? Either you say no, or you say yes, or you say there is a distinction. I know the distinction, but I want to understand from you: every narrator. Listen, may Allah guide you.
The student: Go ahead.
The Shaykh: You do not give weight to these waiting people, and you are arguing. May Allah guide you. Did you understand my question?
The student : I understood.
The Shaykh: I am waiting for you until next week to give an answer to this question: Is every narrator in *Sahih Muslim* one whose hadith is authentic? If the answer is that you do not know, then at that time, your statement regarding that hadith in which it is said that he saw him not moving it, your statement: "It is an authentic hadith," you are mistaken. Then, do you know the rules of usul al-fiqh?
The student: Usul al-fiqh, no.
The Shaykh: Okay, so in usul al-fiqh, it tells you: If an affirming report and a denying report conflict, which is given precedence? The affirming one or the denying one?
The student: You said once that the denial is given precedence, and once that the affirmation is given precedence.
The Shaykh: No.
The student: In *Al-Silsilah al-Sahihah*, my teacher.
The Shaykh: This is what we know, may Allah guide you. What we know and testify to, and all the scholars, is that the affirming report is given precedence over the denying report. This means that if two authentic reports come, one affirming something and the other denying it, the affirming one is given precedence over the denying one. And I gave an example with two hadiths: one from Bilal that the Messenger of Allah entered the Ka'bah and prayed two rak'ahs, and the other from Ibn 'Abbas that he prayed outside the Ka'bah. So what did the scholars take? They took the affirming hadith. So the affirming one is given precedence over the denying one. So if we assume, for the sake of argument, that the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan is authentic, then at that time, an authentic denying report conflicts with an authentic affirming report, so the affirming one is given precedence over the denying one. Then finally, may Allah reward you, the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan is not authentic. First, certainly, it is possible that he is on the right path when it is a good hadith, because there is talk about his memorization. But here, his hadith is denounced, not because of its specific nature, but because of the confusion of the narrators from him. Some of them mentioned this addition and some of them did not mention it. And this same hadith is in "Sahih Muslim." If you knew, without this addition, do you know this fact?
The student : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh: Do you know that this addition is not in "Sahih Muslim"?
The student: Yes, I checked it, my teacher.
The Shaykh : Listen, my brother, may Allah guide you.
The student: Go ahead.
The Shaykh: Do you know that this hadith is in "Sahih Muslim" and does not contain the addition?
The student: Without moving, yes.
The Shaykh: And what is your research about?
The student: No, I came regarding the narration of al-Bayhaqi.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. What is your research about? Is it not about moving?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Okay, is the hadith of Ibn 'Ujlan from Ibn Jurayj present in "Sahih Muslim"?
The student: No, it is not present in "Sahih Muslim."
The Shaykh: Listen. Is the hadith of Ibn 'Ujlan from Ibn Jurayj present in "Sahih Muslim" without the addition of moving?
The student: No.
The Shaykh: Yes, I checked. So check it. Who opened the door for you, my brother?
The student: He opened it for the air, my Shaykh.
The Shaykh: There is no contradiction, may Allah reward you. Those who say to you that there is a contradiction, the contradiction would involve a clash. As for moving, it includes pointing. Do you understand me now? Does moving include pointing or not?
The student: The wording.
The Shaykh: Listen, answer the question, may Allah guide you. Answer the question.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Does moving include pointing or not?
The student: Ibn Hazm says no.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. I am asking you, are you Ibn Hazm?
The student: Ibn Khuzaymah.
The Shaykh: Are you Ibn Khuzaymah?
The student: No.
The Shaykh: I am asking you, I am asking you. If Ibn Khuzaymah were here, I would speak to him, but I cannot greet him, so I am speaking to you now. What is in your mind? What did you understand?
The student: Pointing is not moving.
The Shaykh: Listen, did you understand the question? What is it?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh : What is it.
The student: Is pointing the same as moving?
The Shaykh: No, may Allah guide you, may Allah guide you. And therefore you must understand scientific issues, especially when there is precision. I say: Can you imagine moving without pointing?
The student: I cannot imagine it.
The Shaykh: No problem, let him digest the topic so that he is convinced by himself. So think, take a moment of time with you.
The student: If you please, our Shaykh, may Allah bless you.
Another student : Later, there is a hadith of Ibn 'Umar, narrated by al-Bayhaqi from Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan from Ibn Jurayj.
The Shaykh: Have you finished with the first issue, may Allah guide you? Have you finished with the first issue? Have you finished with the first issue?
The student: If we have finished with it.
The Shaykh: If.
The student: We have finished with it.
The Shaykh: On what did we finish?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: On what did we finish?
The student: On the pointing.
The Shaykh: May Allah forgive you. You need to finish with the fact that pointing does not contradict moving, do you see? So if you are convinced of this, we can proceed. Even if the brothers will not be patient with us, perhaps, but nevertheless, if you are convinced of this, I can listen to your words about the hadith of Ibn 'Umar.
The student: No, he denies moving in the same hadith, my teacher.
The Shaykh: There is no power or strength except with Allah, my brother. I know this, but I am speaking to you now. What is the hadith that denies moving?
The student: The hadith of Ibn 'Umar.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you.
The student: From Ibn Jurayj from 'Amr ibn Dinar, he said:
I saw 'Amir ibn 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, he said: I saw 'Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr
رأيت عامر بن عبد الله بن الزبير قال : رأيت عبد الله بن الزبيرThe Shaykh: You say its chain is authentic?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Do you know the difference between authentic and weak?
The student : If Allah wills.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. Who is the narrator from Ibn Jurayj?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Who is the narrator from Ibn Jurayj?
The student: Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan.
The Shaykh: Okay, is the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan authentic?
The student: He is one of the men of Muslim.
The Shaykh : I ask Allah to guide you.
The student: He is one of the men of Muslim.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. Is the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan authentic? Your answer should not be "he is one of the men of Muslim," because among the men of Muslim, there are those whose hadith is authentic, those whose hadith is good, and those whose hadith is weak and is cited as evidence. All of this is present in "Sahih Muslim." So when you answer with this answer, it means you are one of two people: either you are ignorant and do not know this knowledge, or you are feigning ignorance. So I am asking you: Is the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan authentic?
The student : Trustworthy.
The Shaykh: Listen, may Allah guide you. What will be your answer? He is one of the men of Muslim. Do you believe that every man present in "Sahih Muslim" has an authentic hadith?
The student: If it is according to its supporting chains.
The Shaykh: If it is like that, the answer should be yes or no.
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Is every man present in "Sahih Muslim" one whose hadith is authentic?
The student: If he is in the original texts, then it is authentic.
The Shaykh: There is no power or strength except with Allah! May Allah guide you. I am cutting to the chase. The best speech is what is brief and to the point. Every narrator present in "Sahih Muslim" has an authentic hadith. Either you say yes or you say no?
The student: According to the issue, my teacher. According to the issue. I could not manage it.
The Shaykh: I am asking you. If my question is general, you give a general answer. If my question is detailed, you give a detailed answer. Now my question is: Is every man present in "Sahih Muslim" one whose hadith is authentic? Either you say no, or you say yes, or you say there is a distinction. I know the distinction, but I want to understand from you: every narrator. Listen, may Allah guide you.
The student: Go ahead.
The Shaykh: You do not give weight to these waiting people, and you are arguing. May Allah guide you. Did you understand my question?
The student : I understood.
The Shaykh: I am waiting for you until next week to give an answer to this question: Is every narrator in *Sahih Muslim* one whose hadith is authentic? If the answer is that you do not know, then at that time, your statement regarding that hadith in which it is said that he saw him not moving it, your statement: "It is an authentic hadith," you are mistaken. Then, do you know the rules of usul al-fiqh?
The student: Usul al-fiqh, no.
The Shaykh: Okay, so in usul al-fiqh, it tells you: If an affirming report and a denying report conflict, which is given precedence? The affirming one or the denying one?
The student: You said once that the denial is given precedence, and once that the affirmation is given precedence.
The Shaykh: No.
The student: In *Al-Silsilah al-Sahihah*, my teacher.
The Shaykh: This is what we know, may Allah guide you. What we know and testify to, and all the scholars, is that the affirming report is given precedence over the denying report. This means that if two authentic reports come, one affirming something and the other denying it, the affirming one is given precedence over the denying one. And I gave an example with two hadiths: one from Bilal that the Messenger of Allah entered the Ka'bah and prayed two rak'ahs, and the other from Ibn 'Abbas that he prayed outside the Ka'bah. So what did the scholars take? They took the affirming hadith. So the affirming one is given precedence over the denying one. So if we assume, for the sake of argument, that the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan is authentic, then at that time, an authentic denying report conflicts with an authentic affirming report, so the affirming one is given precedence over the denying one. Then finally, may Allah reward you, the hadith of Muhammad ibn 'Ujlan is not authentic. First, certainly, it is possible that he is on the right path when it is a good hadith, because there is talk about his memorization. But here, his hadith is denounced, not because of its specific nature, but because of the confusion of the narrators from him. Some of them mentioned this addition
and I saw him not moving it
فرأيته لا يحرِّكهاThe student : Yes, yes.
The Shaykh: Do you know that this addition is not in "Sahih Muslim"?
The student: Yes, I checked it, my teacher.
The Shaykh : Listen, my brother, may Allah guide you.
The student: Go ahead.
The Shaykh: Do you know that this hadith is in "Sahih Muslim" and does not contain the addition?
The student: Without moving, yes.
The Shaykh: And what is your research about?
The student: No, I came regarding the narration of al-Bayhaqi.
The Shaykh: May Allah guide you. What is your research about? Is it not about moving?
The student: Yes.
The Shaykh: Okay, is the hadith of Ibn 'Ujlan from Ibn Jurayj present in "Sahih Muslim"?
The student: No, it is not present in "Sahih Muslim."
The Shaykh: Listen. Is the hadith of Ibn 'Ujlan from Ibn Jurayj present in "Sahih Muslim" without the addition of moving?
The student: No.
The Shaykh: Yes, I checked. So check it. Who opened the door for you, my brother?
The student: He opened it for the air, my Shaykh.
Source
www.al-albany.com
The Arabic text is copied verbatim from the original source, without any edits.