The Shaykh’s discussion on the conditions for change and the causes for establishing the Islamic state.

The Shaykh : ... I imagine every obligation in itself, so it is necessary that...

The questioner : The general obligation, Professor.
He is saying: if the society changes in general, it changes, and the individuals within the society [change].

The Shaykh : Leave me alone regarding the worldly aspect, I said: from the religious aspect.

The questioner : Worldly, we are talking about the worldly aspect. If the society is serious in it, all of them, and there is a small percentage of lazy people, the society changes, and these lazy people benefit from the seriousness of the diligent ones, enjoying comfort without earning it themselves, but rather through the effort of others. Likewise, the matter may be in a society where people are as active as can be, but the majority are lazy and inactive; so the laziness and inactivity of the lazy ones reflects on the seriousness of the diligent ones, and they suffer harm because of that, due to the shortcoming...

Another questioner : ... .

The questioner : So if the entire society, pardon me, if the entire society changes, the worldly aspect changes, but if the entire society does not change, the worldly aspect does not change.

The Shaykh : When he explained the verse: , did he mention that change includes what relates to the world and the Hereafter?

The questioner : Yes, of course, he mentioned wealth and poverty and...

The Shaykh : Did he mention faith and disbelief?

The questioner : No, he did not mention faith and disbelief.

The Shaykh : ... .

Another questioner : ... .

The questioner : ... But he did not mention faith and disbelief, rather he mentioned... and I, of course, this is what I commented on, even in this book of mine, not my book; why did he not put faith and disbelief? So he dealt with the aspect from a worldly perspective, not from an otherworldly perspective; because he is saying: it is a worldly sunnah, not an otherworldly one, yes, another research, a worldly sunnah, not an otherworldly one, in another title.

The Shaykh : ... The verse?

The questioner : He also speaks about the same verse, that the same verse, the change of society is on the same verse; so it is a worldly sunnah he is taking. Now, the otherworldly sunnah is a different research, his scope is in the worldly sunnah now, we want to talk about the worldly sunnah, and it is not his scope the otherworldly sunnah; because the otherworldly sunnah is that every person is judged individually by Allah (Mighty and Majestic), we are not judged as a group; so he now wants to look at the society as a whole, judging the society worldly; meaning the society is responsible for its shortcoming, not the individual, of course the individual is responsible for his shortcoming in the society, but the goal is the worldly aspect before the otherworldly aspect, this is what he aims for in the book.

Eid Abbasi : He focuses on the worldly aspects more than...

The questioner : No, yes, there is a specific chapter: "A Worldly Sunnah, Not an Otherworldly One."

The Shaykh : Is this verse immediately preceded by worldly matters or otherworldly ones? ...

The questioner : This is a deficiency from him, another research, Professor. The point is: is this statement that he attributed to the worldly aspect correct or wrong? As for him being short...

The Shaykh : Correct with the previous condition that... Brother Ahmad.

The questioner : And what is it?

The Shaykh : It is correct that it is not necessary that it be a necessity or that it must be, meaning.

Another questioner : Necessary means he says, like the poet said:
"If the people one day desire life *** Then fate must respond."

The Shaykh : Meaning a person eats and gets full; yes, it is the sunnah of Allah in His creation, but he may eat and not get full, this one may drink water and not be quenched.

The questioner : This is the extraordinary, the ordinary matters, he is speaking of the sunnah that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) established, that it is extraordinary, set it aside.

The Shaykh : I do not know... in the extraordinary of the otherworldly matters; meaning one who believes is rewarded with the reward of the disbeliever?

The questioner: No.

The Shaykh : So there is a difference between the two directions.

Another questioner : If you allow me, in the name of Allah, an example that may clarify the matter; meaning an analogy with a slight difference, Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) is saying...
...

The Shaykh : ... So because of success in the Hereafter, he must be saved.

The questioner : If the society as a whole?

The Shaykh: Yes.

Another questioner : A correct expression.

The Shaykh : Okay, what I said is this: you say...

The questioner : The society changed, if the society changed and took the complete causes, correct.

The Shaykh : What I want to say is not you.

The questioner : I understood you, meaning.

The Shaykh : I understood you, please, I do not repeat if I understood you.

Another questioner : What did you understand from me at the beginning?

The Shaykh : Why should I repeat?

The questioner : Yes, that is it.

The Shaykh : And I felt that you did not understand me.

The questioner : No, I understood you; the society, and therefore I started... the society changed not by itself from the worldly causes and started with seriousness, activity, and work; so this is like the individual who, meaning, moved from disbelief to faith, so he guaranteed, meaning, the otherworldly aspect, so these people guarantee the world as that one guarantees the Hereafter.

The Shaykh : Is the matter the same?

The questioner : Meaning, as it appears, of course, it is so.

The Shaykh : Why is it so?

The questioner : Because as long as he submitted to the circumstance in time and took the complete causes, then he took the complete cause, the complete cause is faith, so he receives the reward and it does not fail; likewise here, he took the complete cause from the striving and work as a society as a whole, so this does not fail.

The Shaykh : The verse of al-Isra' is brought against you.

The questioner : How?

The Shaykh : .

The questioner : Who is this individual, this individual is not a society, .

The Shaykh : Not an individual.

The questioner is from the words of generality.

The Shaykh : This is a response to you, strange, you say individual, the individual is from the words of generality!

The questioner : He addresses the human being individually in it, he does not address a society in it.

The Shaykh means everyone.

Another questioner : Everyone, correct.

The Shaykh means everyone.

Another questioner : .

The Shaykh : It would have been, then, my brother, this is from a religious aspect, from a logical aspect: suppose for me the smallest society you like, say - for example - five, fifteen, a hundred, two hundred, and so on, suppose for me.

The questioner : ... The smallest society... an individual, if we want to call an individual a society, if the naming is correct, the society is three, the smallest society if we suppose a group, meaning.

The Shaykh : Okay, question: a society composed of three people, three questions will be directed to it, all of them like each other, look at the result that comes out, the first individual, if he changed not by himself from the worldly aspect, is it necessary that he changes like the one who changed not by himself from the otherworldly aspect? Say: No.

The questioner : No, it is not necessary.

The Shaykh : This... number two: the same question, the same answer, this... the third, the same question, the same answer.

The questioner : Why the same answer for the three if they are together living in a matter...

The Shaykh : Give me an answer other than that, I will listen from you.

The questioner : ... .

The Shaykh: Repeat the question.

The questioner: Go ahead.

The Shaykh : Number one of the three dealt with the causes of change regarding the world; is it necessary that he succeeds?

The questioner : It is not a condition, no.

The Shaykh : It is not a condition, is the second one necessary to succeed?

The questioner : It is not necessary...

The Shaykh : May Allah guide you, you were apparently asleep...

The questioner : Is your statement the two together or each one for himself?

The Shaykh : Or did you find now a vent in your opinion for the speech and you vented a little about yourself.

The questioner : Is the second one cooperating with the first one as one body or each one for himself, meaning?

Another questioner : ... We divide it differently...

The questioner : The society, we are talking, we take the society together.

The Shaykh : These three people.

The questioner : These three people, if the work they want to achieve and carry out, meaning, they took the complete causes for it actually, they can do it, but if they want to achieve something greater than their capacity, they cannot do it; meaning they are three and they want to carry this plate...

Another questioner : ... .

The questioner : Please, please, Abu Ahmad...
...

The Shaykh : You are revealing what is in your heart.

The questioner : This condition must be present.

The Shaykh : Okay, on the contrary; the...

The questioner : ... Except what Allah wills.

The Shaykh : ... No, the individual who strives for the Hereafter and takes the causes of success, except what Allah wills.

The questioner : No, his success is certain.

The Shaykh : A society composed of individuals like these, cooperating as I compared earlier, wants to lift the plate from the ground, to move this mountain from this place to another; if they cooperate and take hold of the causes of success that Allah has prescribed, they will succeed, except as Allah wills. Now, let us take a society composed of Muslim individuals, where neither one nor two nor three can build the Islamic society, the Islamic state, etc., except by cooperating. So, if they cooperate and take hold of the causes of establishing the Muslim state, will the Muslim state necessarily be established?

The questioner : No, except as Allah wills.

The Shaykh : No, that statement is not correct; you say "necessarily."

The questioner : No, except as Allah wills. I am telling you, we agree: except as Allah wills.

The Shaykh : You are... now, between two examples: that one is worldly, this one is otherworldly; that one is material, this one is religious.

The questioner : Establishing the Muslim state is not otherworldly religious; it is this worldly religious matter.

The Shaykh : ... .

The questioner : Please be patient; it is not otherworldly religious. We are speaking about that there.

The Shaykh : My brother, what does mean? I will give you an example other than the state, in case the state confused you. I will give you an example: a Muslim army that takes the means of victory, both material and legal; is it possible that they will not win, or do you say: except as Allah wills?

The questioner : By the will of Allah (Mighty and Majestic), except as Allah wills.

The Shaykh : ... This statement is not correct. What is this? I wish you had said the statement in the first example, where you were saying they will necessarily lift the plate. Do you want to say they will necessarily win, necessarily, or... do you say: except as Allah wills?

Another questioner : Because Allah promised them victory.

The Shaykh : It would have been!

Another questioner : ... And Allah does not break His promise.

The questioner : So here, one can say:

The Shaykh : Do not narrow the path for yourself. It is not two hundred overcoming how many? Two thousand; ten thousand Muslims with two thousand disbelievers in front of them.

Eid Abbasi : The opposite.

The Shaykh : No, no, I mean, I am not saying... ten thousand Muslims with two thousand disbelievers in front of them, and the Muslims are taking the material and moral means of victory; can you say: Allah will not help them?

The questioner : Of course, Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) will help them.

The Shaykh : Do you say: except as Allah wills?

The questioner : No, if they took...

The Shaykh : I am telling you: the worldly and legal causes.

The questioner : Yes, Allah (Mighty and Majestic) will necessarily help them; because He promised that.

The Shaykh : Ah, what about the reverse? There are ten thousand disbelievers taking the means of strength, success, and overcoming, etc.; meaning, everyone who studies their situation says: victory is necessary for them...?

The questioner : They may be defeated.

The Shaykh : They may be defeated.

The questioner : Correct.

The Shaykh : This is the difference between the two aspects. The material means, meaning the material causes that are usually linked to their effects, this is a system, but it sometimes fails, except as Allah wills. As for the otherworldly causes that Allah (Mighty and Majestic) made causes of the effects, they cannot fail at all; because this is the meaning of your statement: it is possible, as the Asha'irah say exactly, that a person lives eternally believing in Allah and His Messenger, and then he is told: please... enter Hellfire.

The questioner : May Allah protect us! May Allah protect us!

The Shaykh : But the reverse is possible... now you say: it is possible for the Lord of the Worlds; logically now; it is possible for the Lord of the Worlds to take a disbeliever and put him in Paradise. What would this be? A favor from Him. But the narrative texts came to us: . But I will bring you another picture now; it did not say, yes, , if righteous deeds and faith are the cause of entering Paradise. So, is it possible for Allah (Mighty and Majestic) to create people for Paradise who did not do righteous deeds?

The questioner : Yes, you may.

The Shaykh : It is possible, this is a favor. But is it possible for Him to create people whom He punishes in the Fire without them having engaged in the cause of punishment?

The questioner: No, no.

The Shaykh : So there is a difference, then, between religious matters and worldly matters.

The questioner : Yes, correct.

The Shaykh : So, in worldly matters, the natural cosmic rule is that effects follow their causes: you eat and you are satisfied, you drink and you are quenched, etc. But do not take it... as material, yes, do not take it as material like doctors and others; the effect may be delayed from the cause.

The questioner : But his intention is that this is an exception, meaning, if it were not for...

Eid Abbasi : This is close to the issue of contagion, Professor, .

The Shaykh: Yes.

Eid Abbasi : So there is contagion... and there is contagion...

The questioner : He does not take it—as I believe and as I claim—as material, but rather he wants to mean, he wants to clarify that the Muslims settled on the earth and did not take the causes that Allah obligated upon them. This is what he wants to convey...

The Shaykh : Yes, yes, this—my brother—is fine, but the thing I wanted to criticize you for before—and you are not to be criticized—is that in it... no, it is not in it... but in the precise aspect, you must clarify so that the reader of the book knows that the author distinguishes between the material causes...

The questioner : ... He has a shortcoming in the research.

Eid Abbasi : It may be a military rule, what is it? It supports the result the Professor reached, that an army may be the worst organized.

Another questioner : ... .

Eid Abbasi : What is the military rule...

The Shaykh : ... Here you do not bear... but...

Eid Abbasi : An army the worst organized...

The questioner : Yes, it is possible; the best... the best commander, the best elements, may lose to the worst commander, the worst... the worst elements.

The Shaykh : Why?

The questioner : ... meaning, from the aspect of... ...

Eid Abbasi : ... .

The questioner : Sometimes, Professor, I say this... Professor... meaning, it is possible that one— for example—a group of weak people... and their piety to Allah, Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) helps them to defeat a stronger group; meaning, I intend that these material things are also not stripped of the legal and faith-based causes. As for, for example, when al-Khalid ibn al-Walid was at the Battle of Yarmuk; for example, one hundred thousand, and he had ten thousand with him, so where is one power compared to the other? ... It includes much, and first of all it includes what can be observed and seen of the attributes of society, such as poverty and wealth, honor and humiliation, health and sickness, do you see? You did not include them, so when I commented, I said that faith and disbelief first include...